Why have the Sign Gifts Ended
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You're focusing on only half the statement, "words of the prophecy" and ignoring the other half, "of this book".
John isn't saying that there will be no more prophecies after Revelation. He's warning people against adding to the prophecies of Revelation.
As I said in my post to John146, "require" can mean both "need" and "want". One must determine which meaning the author intended, which is called interpretation.
The beauty of the kjv is that you don’t need to go back to the Greek. You just need to cross reference to all the other kjv scriptures and understand the intended meaning.
I have already provided for you various examples here https://christianchat.com/threads/why-have-the-sign-gifts-ended.196068/post-4429794
Have you ever heard of the 'omniscient narrator' in English class? There are Bible commentators on forums like these who treat themselves as 'omniscient Bible commentators.' The Bible does not teach some of their opinions, but they will tell you why a certain thing is really in the Bible, substituting a reason that fits with one of their unbiblically supported theories. That is what I see with this OP-- assuming these gifts ceased, and then wrapping some Bible verses around their theory, a theory the Bible does not teach.
Signs are not exclusively for Israel, and certainly not during the time God is reaching out to Gentiles.
Even in Old Testament times, signs could serve a purpose, even if it were secondary in some cases, related to Gentiles.
Exodus 14:18 KJV: And the Egyptians shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have gotten me honour upon Pharaoh, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.
Even Gentiles gained knowledge of the LORD through the splitting of the Red Sea and closing it back again.
Look in the New Testament. We see in Acts 13 that Sergius Paulus believed after he saw Elymas struck blind. Is there any reason to think this Roman official was not a Gentile? In Acts 15, Paul and Barnabas spoke of the signs they performed among the Gentiles. In I Corinthians 12, Paul addresses his readers as former idol worshipers, then teaches them about the spiritual gifts distributed among them.
If we read Acts and even Hebrews, we see signs and wonders continued on after Christ ascended. Creating doctrine by reading a meaning into some verses that contradicts other scripture is a poor method of interpretation. I Corinthians 12 teaches that manifestations of the Spirit are distributed among the members of the body of Christ as the Spirit wills. There is no passage of scripture that 'cancels' that teaching.
You take the waiting for a year after dunging the tree quite literally. Trees tend to fruit on an annual basis. But if you want to take it that literally, why would Luke 13 have been spoken right before Christ's death and resurrection rather than a year or years before?
Peter wrote of his audience repenting that times of refreshing might come. But Paul, writing years later, asked what shall the receiving of them (Israel) be, but life from the dead. I see no reason to think the eschatological scenario changed because Israel's continued rejection of the Messiah. Paul quoted rather old prophecies, from the song of Moses, for example in Romans which applied to Israel's rejection of the Messiah, for example, 'by a foolish nation I will anger you.' We should not think that Israel's rejection of the Messiah as a surprise to God.
What verses in the passage lead you to that conclusion? How does this argument of yours about Israel rejecting the Holy Spirit have anything to do with your argument for cessationism? How is it different from israel's other rejection of God through idolatry and stoning prophets in past generations?
- Paul was given signs and wonders temporary to alert Israel of the change in dispensation (Acts 15:12)[/quote]
Acts 15:12
12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
Why would you make something up that the verse does not say, then cite the verse as if it proved your point? Notice that they did signs and wonders among the Gentiles, so why would you think they were 'temporary' when the passage doe snot say it, or that this was an 'alert to Israel of the change in dispensation.' This verse says nothing about such an 'alert to Israel.'
Preaching salvation to the Gentiles and Gentiles being saved is to provoke Israel to jealousy, but God is also accepting Gentiles, and it would be wrong to assume that provoking Israel is His exclusive motive for accepting Gentiles. God has a purpose in the church related to teaching something to powers and principalities. He is preparing a bride for His Son. He spoke to Abraham about all the families of the earth being blessed.
In this passage, some believed, and some did not.
- Signs and wonders have completely ceased at Acts 28.[/quote]
You haven't shown a lick of Biblical evidence in this post that leads to your final conclusion. You have an unbiblically supported theory and wrap verses around it that do not support the theory. You cited verses that did not support the points you argued.
Doesn't it bother you that you argued for a theory for which you offered no Biblical support that contradicts direct teaching and commandments of New Testament scripture? Let me give some examples:
- The teaching of I Corinthians 12 that the Spirit distributes these gifts to members of the body of Christ (after describing his readers as former pagans, a background which we might associate more with Gentiles than Jews.)
- The command to earnestly desire spiritual gifts, especially that ye may prophesy. (ch. 14)
- instructions ('commandments of the Lord') for church meetings that allow for sharing of revelations, a tongue and interpretation. (ch. 14.)
- 'Commandments of the Lord' for church gatherings that require to 'let the prophets speak two or three' and give other instructions. (ch. 14.)
- The instruction to 'covet to prophesy and forbid not to speak with tongues' (ch. 14.)
- The instruction to 'Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings.' (I Thess. 5.)
S
Scribe
Guest
I was preaching on the streets in Dallas, a man got hit by a truck and was dead on the pavement. After several minutes with a crowd gathered around just waiting for an ambulance, the driver of the truck crying, and no one doing CPR, (the time having passed for that), one of the soul winners that was with me got down on his knees and laid hands on the man and yelled at the top of his lungs, his voice echoing off the buildings and said "LIVE IN THE NAME OF JESUS!"
The man opened his eyes and began to breath again.
The crowd gasped in fear.
The ambulance eventually made it and took the man to the hospital. My friend went to the hospital during the next week to visit him and he had a lot of internal damage to recover from but he told my friend that he remembered looking down on his body laying on the pavement from above and seeing my friend command him to Live in the Name of Jesus and then he remembered looking into my friends face as though he was back in his body again.
Believers are still raising the dead in Jesus Name! Whether you believe it or not.
My pastor was called to the hospital because one of our elderly retired ministers had suffered a stroke. When he got there the doctor told him that he was brain dead. He had been on life support for over an hour and there was nothing that could be done. No brain activity due to loss of oxygen to the brain and he should be removed from life support. He was dead, he was not coming back.
The family gathered by the bed to say goodbye. My pastor asked the Lord to heal him and raise him from the dead if need be, and then he prayed in tongues for a while interceding on what to do and then he did something no one was expecting. He said to the patient... Brother B. If you can hear me squeeze my hand. He felt him squeeze his hand. He went to the doctor and told him. The Doctor said, you are mistaken, this is just nerve twitches it is impossible for him to revive. So he went back and asked again, Brother B. if you can hear me squeeze my hand, and he felt the squeeze again, and this time he insisted to the Doctor. The Doctor came and started doing some testing and excitedly started calling out instructions to his staff and moved all the family out.
Brother B. completely recovered with no residual effects from his experience. He is healthy and as mentally sharp as he has ever been. The Doctor still tells people it was one of the Miracles of faith he has witnessed. There is no medical explanation.
Believer are still raising people from the dead in the name of Jesus. Whether you believe it or not.
If you ever suffer an accident that kills you do you want a believer that believes that Jesus still raises from the dead to pray for you or someone who thinks that sign gift is over to pray for you? Well of course we all say we are ready to go to heaven which is far better but most of us don't want to check out early especially if there are people who are still needing us.
How do you know which word to go with? Whatever suits your theology?
Was that a one time occurrence or did the man go around healing everyone else? If not, he does not have the gift of healing.
Wrong. All the other KJV scriptures tell you nothing about the context of a specific verse, which is what you use to determine the meaning of a word in its immediate context. Other verses only tell you how the word was used in other contexts.
S
Scribe
Guest
My friend would probably tell you that he does not have the gift of healing. But I don't think it matters.
He doesn't have to have the gift of healing. He just needs to be a believer and have faith in the name of Jesus.
12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk? 13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; ... his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
While others stood around thinking they did not have "the gift of healing" my brother BELIEVED in the word of God and stepped out in faith. I am sure that the man on the pavement did not care if he had "the gift of healing" or not. And I am sure my friend doesn't care about that either.
Signs have not ended Mathew 7:7-8 is a key to see.
Have you noticed the oldest trade secret in the world? it was revealed and confirmed in 1811, the oldest trade secret in the world has been hidden before time began. It was discovered by back-engineering over 200 years ago, it has been in front of the world to see but the owner had kept the eyes of the world closed to its importance until 2020. A brilliant incredible long-term strategy planned before time began. Take a little time to find the answer, I hope you will find it, if not it will be given.
Have you noticed the oldest trade secret in the world? it was revealed and confirmed in 1811, the oldest trade secret in the world has been hidden before time began. It was discovered by back-engineering over 200 years ago, it has been in front of the world to see but the owner had kept the eyes of the world closed to its importance until 2020. A brilliant incredible long-term strategy planned before time began. Take a little time to find the answer, I hope you will find it, if not it will be given.
Ok, but I'm talking about the sign gift of healing. It did not come and go. The Apostles had the sign gifts. It was not a one time occurrence. The sign gifts were meant to prove to the Jews that their message was valid. Gentiles do not require such a sign. We are commanded to walk by faith in the word of God.
B
Blackpowderduelist
Guest
One thing is I never said that God does not perform miracles nor that that he doesn't use believers to as vessels to do his miracles, Healings and all do happen today.
The second is most important. if I die and some yahoo calls me back to this life, I will cut his tongue out so he never does it again.
That's a thing I fail to understand. Ya supposed to be spirit filled but ya put so much value on this life.
I understand for the losts sake yes raise them, but raising me will be robbing me of my eternal home.
You're missing the point though. "Require" can mean "want" or "need" whether it's in the KJV or another translation. You still have to make that determination based on context.
Did not the prophet-apostle John already tell us that with the close of his book, no additional prophecies would be valid, and that there was a serious warning attached to that statement?
S
Scribe
Guest
Does that include CPR?
B