Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

[Dino246]

Yes, that was the point I was trying to address in my points 8 to 10.

In 1 Cor, all the 9 gifts were mentioned. That letter was written during the transitional period between Acts 7 and Acts 28, where signs and wonders were still given to Paul, as well as the Gentile churches, as a sign to Israel.

But by the time Paul wrote his prison epistles and pastoral letters after Acts 28, do you notice he no longer talk about tongues, in Ephesians 4 for example

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Why is Paul (or, for that matter, the Holy Spirit Who inspired him) obligated to repeat material that he had already covered in another letter?

He isn't. There is a separate purpose to Ephesians 4:11 than for 1 Corinthians 12-14. The gifts of evangelism, pastoring, and teaching aren't mentioned in 1 Corinthians; does that mean they weren't in existence then?

Your reasoning is deeply flawed.

 

[Guojing]

Why is Paul (or, for that matter, the Holy Spirit Who inspired him) obligated to repeat material that he had already covered in another letter?

He isn't. There is a separate purpose to Ephesians 4:11 than for 1 Corinthians 12-14. The gifts of evangelism, pastoring, and teaching aren't mentioned in 1 Corinthians; does that mean they weren't in existence then?

Your reasoning is deeply flawed.

As I already stated in this thread, he repeated some and deliberately left others out

1 Cor 12 list
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

versus Ephesians 4 list

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

If you don't think it was deliberate, that is fine. We are just sharing our different interpretations here.

 

[Dino246]

As I already stated in this thread, he repeated some and deliberately left others out

1 Cor 12 list
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

versus Ephesians 4 list

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

If you don't think it was deliberate, that is fine. We are just sharing our different interpretations here.

Correction; teaching was mentioned.

Yes, I do think it was deliberate, because Paul was addressing distinct issues, not because only some gifts were in operation at certain times.

 

[Guojing]

Correction; teaching was mentioned.

Yes, I do think it was deliberate, because Paul was addressing distinct issues, not because only some gifts were in operation at certain times.

Alright then, thanks for sharing your perspective.

 

[Scribe]

Israel was promised a kingdom on earth with Jesus ruling over them from Jerusalem.

In that kingdom, he promised Israel that there will be no one sick, so that explains the numerous healings he did, to give them a taste of life in that kingdom.

What you are talking about now is more of a "spiritual kingdom" correct? If you are thinking of healing too, that comes only at the rapture, as Paul would explain to us from Romans 8:18 onwards.

I just came out of a Holy Spirit Prayer meeting were the prayer of faith healed the sick. The kingdom is now, and not yet. There are still "tastes of the kingdom to come by being a partaker of the Holy Ghost which gives gifts according to his will and this will continue until that which is perfect is come. Your divisions and dispensations of starts and full stops are a figment of your imagination.

 

[Scribe]

I do know a significant hand full of non-denominational and Pentecostal charismatic folk. (Of course anecdotal evidence is not a standard) They complain about some of the tv wackadoos, but many follow some of the tv nuts. Even the ones who argue against one tv guy or another, when you visit their church, they are up to the same stuff. But like I said, personal experience don't amount to nothing.
I personally left the charismatic church because the; let's call them inconsistencies. I did go to several before I abandoned the whole thing.

There are flakes everywhere. Every church has some. Even the evangelical denominations. There you find 80 % not even born again. At least in the charismatic churches 80% are born again and living holy lives even if they do get a little weird or embrace more than one would define as biblical gifts. There is no perfect church but genuinely sincere holy lives should be the majority of a congregation that is allowing the Holy Spirit to have control in doctrine and in practice.

 

[Scribe]

Israel was promised a kingdom on earth with Jesus ruling over them from Jerusalem.

In that kingdom, he promised Israel that there will be no one sick, so that explains the numerous healings he did, to give them a taste of life in that kingdom.

What you are talking about now is more of a "spiritual kingdom" correct? If you are thinking of healing too, that comes only at the rapture, as Paul would explain to us from Romans 8:18 onwards.

The kingdom of God is now and not yet. We have been partakers of the Holy Ghost and tasted of the powers of the world to come, by these gifts that the Holy Spirit manifests according to the His will. We will continue to "taste" of the power of the kingdom to come until that which is perfect is come when it will not longer be a taste here and there but full manifestation. Until then we operate in the gifts as the Spirit wills not as we will it.

Some get weird and take it upon themselves to speak with the Spirit is not speaking and they are an embarrassment to themselves and to those who know that the unlearned will think all gifts are fake because of the flakes. But we do not reject the gifts of the Holy Spirit because of the uneducated, uninitiated, and unsurrendered.

What puzzles me is why someone would be uncomfortable in a church were there is an occasional flake that needs to be corrected but they are comfortable going to a church where all the deacons smoke and drink and cuss like sailors.

 

[Guojing]

I just came out of a Holy Spirit Prayer meeting were the prayer of faith healed the sick. The kingdom is now, and not yet. There are still "tastes of the kingdom to come by being a partaker of the Holy Ghost which gives gifts according to his will and this will continue until that which is perfect is come. Your divisions and dispensations of starts and full stops are a figment of your imagination.

The kingdom promised to Israel was a physical one, as prophecies like Zechariah 8 indicated.

The kingdom promised to the Body of Christ is a heavenly one, as Paul would instruct us in Ephesians 1:3.

Once you understand the difference between these 2, it will be easier to understand why healing, for example, is given to Israel now, because they were promised a physical kingdom, with physical blessings.

But those physical blessings are suppose to point Israel to the spiritual ones.

Jesus made that link clearest in Luke 6, after he fed the 5000 with physical food.

26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. 27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. 35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. 48 I am that bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

So Jesus was trying to point out to Israel not to be just contented with seeking him for physical needs like food and such, but to believe that he is their Messiah and promised son of God. That is the spiritual blessing that await them.

However, as you can also see in my point 7, Israel ultimately rejected Jesus as their promised Messiah. By the time they stoned Stephen, Israel has now fallen in the eyes of God (Romans 11:11)

As a result of that fall, we gentiles can now partake in their spiritual blessings in our spiritual kingdom of God (Romans 15:27). We are now declared righteous in our spirit thru the death burial and resurrection of Christ. (1 Cor 15:1-4).

We are not promised the same physical blessings of healing NOW, but we will get complete healing of our physical bodies in the rapture as what Paul instructs in Romans 8:18 onwards, and what people like Nicholas James Vujicic is looking forward to as well.

 

[John146]

You say when there is no evidence of the unseen, belief in it increases. Any historic examples of that ?

Faith not belief. Faith come by hearing the word of God. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. I have faith that Noah built an ark because God’s word says so. I do not need physical evidence. That’s faith. Jews did not walk by faith but by sight. Jews need evidence, a sign to believe the message.

 

[Dino246]

Faith not belief. Faith come by hearing the word of God. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. I have faith that Noah built an ark because God’s word says so. I do not need physical evidence. That’s faith. Jews did not walk by faith but by sight. Jews need evidence, a sign to believe the message.

I think you're misusing the terms because you're overlooking one clause of the definition of faith: things hoped for. We don't hope for Noah building an ark; that's historical fact recorded in Scripture, and we either accept it as fact or we don't. We hope for resurrection and eternal life with God.

Further, nowhere in Scripture does it say that the Jews need evidence; it says they ask for signs. Don't claim that the Bible says things it doesn't say in one place, and then in another place claim that the KJV has the perfect words of God; that's hypocrisy.

 

[Guojing]

I think you're misusing the terms because you're overlooking one clause of the definition of faith: things hoped for. We don't hope for Noah building an ark; that's historical fact recorded in Scripture, and we either accept it as fact or we don't. We hope for resurrection and eternal life with God.

Further, nowhere in Scripture does it say that the Jews need evidence; it says they ask for signs. Don't claim that the Bible says things it doesn't say in one place, and then in another place claim that the KJV has the perfect words of God; that's hypocrisy.

In the scriptures that I have quoted in my OP,

Did God tell Moses in Exodus 4, to tell the Jews to believe "in faith" that Moses is sent by God? In the last verse of Exodus 4, it was explicitly stated that the elders believed after the signs.

Did the Angel of the Lord rebuked Gideon, in Judges 6:17, when the latter asked for signs that it was indeed the Lord talking to him?

When John the Baptist's disciples came to Jesus in Luke 7 and ask him to verify his identity, why didn't Jesus rebuke them but immediately did all the signs required in Isaiah 35:4-6?

Why didn't Jesus told John's disciples to go back to John to tell him to believe in faith?

Asking for signs is about the same as asking for evidence. Israel, since she was born in the book of Exodus, was never expected to take by faith that God was with them.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

There are flakes everywhere. Every church has some. Even the evangelical denominations. There you find 80 % not even born again. At least in the charismatic churches 80% are born again and living holy lives even if they do get a little weird or embrace more than one would define as biblical gifts. There is no perfect church but genuinely sincere holy lives should be the majority of a congregation that is allowing the Holy Spirit to have control in doctrine and in practice.

Not hardly. 80% my foot. The only bunch with nearly as much scandal as the catholics is the charismatics.
I'm not even baptist, but the biggest scandal they have had is Beth Moore attempting to be a pastor.

 

[Scribe]

Not hardly. 80% my foot. The only bunch with nearly as much scandal as the catholics is the charismatics.
I'm not even baptist, but the biggest scandal they have had is Beth Moore attempting to be a pastor.

It was Billy Graham who is on record as saying that he believed that on any given Sunday morning as much as 80% of congregates in his denomination sitting in the pews were not even born again. And even though he and I both know that he can not know everyone's hearts, he had a reason for saying it being very familiar with his denomination. It is the same experience I have had through the years. I found the opposite stats with the Assemblies of God, more like 20% not really born again. The only difference between the Southern Baptist and the AOG is their interpretation of The Baptism of the Holy Spirit, the Gifts of the Spirit and that a backslider can go to hell. Almost everything else is the same.

I believe that the pentecostal doctrines contribute to lifestyles that are completely surrendered to Christ. Thus holiness and no compromise is the norm. There are always acceptations but they get fired from ministry positions.

 

[Dino246]

In the scriptures that I have quoted in my OP,

Did God tell Moses in Exodus 4, to tell the Jews to believe "in faith" that Moses is sent by God? In the last verse of Exodus 4, it was explicitly stated that the elders believed after the signs.

Did the Angel of the Lord rebuked Gideon, in Judges 6:17, when the latter asked for signs that it was indeed the Lord talking to him?

When John the Baptist's disciples came to Jesus in Luke 7 and ask him to verify his identity, why didn't Jesus rebuke them but immediately did all the signs required in Isaiah 35:4-6?

Why didn't Jesus told John's disciples to go back to John to tell him to believe in faith?

Asking for signs is about the same as asking for evidence. Israel, since she was born in the book of Exodus, was never expected to take by faith that God was with them.

And? God gave signs to everyone, not only to Israel. It's easy to say that most of His signs were for Israel, but then, most of the Bible is about Israel, so that is rather thin evidence for any broad proclamations about signs today.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

One thing that just irks me is the audacity to proclaim people ya don't know as unsaved. Just to pronounce 80% of a Christian group as not born again let's me know exactly how spirit filled a person is. What a crass and self righteous way to speak, and dishonest to boot. I'm not even an evangelical but find such an outrageous claim against them to abhorrent.

 

[Guojing]

And? God gave signs to everyone, not only to Israel. It's easy to say that most of His signs were for Israel, but then, most of the Bible is about Israel, so that is rather thin evidence for any broad proclamations about signs today.

That is covered in my point 8, but those signs was to authenticate Paul's revelation of the mystery to Israel.

Notice again that, in the Jerusalem Council, God did not expect them to take by faith that Paul was legitimate. It was all the signs (Acts 15:12), plus what Peter witnessed about Cornelius speaking in known languages in Acts 10, which by itself is a sign to unbelieving Israel (
Isaiah 28:11)

But you do agree with my point that the Jews required signs, they require evidence before their very eyes, if they are to believe that God sent someone to them?

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

It was Billy Graham who is on record as saying that he believed that on any given Sunday morning as much as 80% of congregates in his denomination sitting in the pews were not even born again. And even though he and I both know that he can not know everyone's hearts, he had a reason for saying it being very familiar with his denomination. It is the same experience I have had through the years. I found the opposite stats with the Assemblies of God, more like 20% not really born again. The only difference between the Southern Baptist and the AOG is their interpretation of The Baptism of the Holy Spirit, the Gifts of the Spirit and that a backslider can go to hell. Almost everything else is the same.

Then Billy Graham, spoke way out of turn. He didn't even know less than 1percent. Plus there are a lot of problems with Billy's theology and teaching.

 

[Dino246]

That is covered in my point 8, but those signs was to authenticate Paul's revelation of the mystery to Israel.

But you do agree with my point that the Jews required signs, they require evidence before their very eyes, if they are to believe that God sent someone to them?

Whatever I think about that has no bearing on your core premise that the sign gifts have ended. Your reasoning is flawed.

 

[Guojing]

Whatever I think about that has no bearing on your core premise that the sign gifts have ended. Your reasoning is flawed.

Naturally, in a discussion forum, it is expected that there would be disagreements.

The point was, at least we do agree on something, that is a start.

 

[Guojing]

Whatever I think about that has no bearing on your core premise that the sign gifts have ended. Your reasoning is flawed.

So if you believe that Israel required a sign from God that someone was sent to them.

And if you believe that, currently, Israel the nation is an enemy to God when it comes to the gospel (Romans 11:28), so in God's eyes, Israel the nation has fallen (Romans 11:11)

It seems more than reasonable to conclude, from the above 2 premises, that God is not showing any signs to anyone now.

But yes, you are right, after the Body of Christ is raptured, and God restarts his dealings with Israel, signs and wonders will definitely be making a comeback then. (Matthew 24:24, Revelation 11:3-6)