Why have the Sign Gifts Ended
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Trust me I know all to well about this, when I was a new believer I had yet to gain spiritual discernment and so many so called prophets on youtube damaged me severely it isn't hard to make a prophetic mention or supposed word from the Lord and so many people will easily follow such people and it absolutely infuriates me how people can so blantently claim to speak for God disregarding the damage they are doing to those who follow them taking the words of God so cheaply when they are holy and sacred
Anyone who desires to walk in the gift of prophecy and anyone who claims to be a prophet better count the cost because they more than anyone will be held accountable for the words they speak. You don't choose to be a prophet or walk in the gift of prophecy and you have too learn how to know his voice how to separate his v oice from your own or from the enemies when one is given the gift they learn how to recognize that flow of the spirit they don't normally know or understand what they are saying they just follow the river
to be honest the gift of prophecy dreams visions and the prophet itself is a very fascinating and very indepth topic it would require an entire thread just to explain it all.
Anyone who desires to walk in the gift of prophecy and anyone who claims to be a prophet better count the cost because they more than anyone will be held accountable for the words they speak. You don't choose to be a prophet or walk in the gift of prophecy and you have too learn how to know his voice how to separate his v oice from your own or from the enemies when one is given the gift they learn how to recognize that flow of the spirit they don't normally know or understand what they are saying they just follow the river
to be honest the gift of prophecy dreams visions and the prophet itself is a very fascinating and very indepth topic it would require an entire thread just to explain it all.
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We all know, that the ones who primarily cling to the idea of Supernatural gifts still existing today are the Charismatics. They also teach "individual" Spirit Baptism, which is not Biblical. No individual was ever baptized by are into the Holy Spirit according to the book of Acts. Check it out for yourself. Baptism in the Holy Spirit always occurred collectively. First upon the Jewish believers in Jerusalem and then later upon the Gentiles. The two aspects of baptism, placing all believers into the one and same Universal Assembly which Christ is building. The Pauline epistles, when dealing with this subject, are always looking back to these events.
As to the "gifts" of the Spirit, we still possess the ordinary gifts, as God gives to each the ability to Love the brethren, to Preach, to teach, to heal (as one does as a physician), each as the Lord sees fit.
However as to the extraordinary gifts, these have passed away for now and will be seen again as the Kingdom approaches. The apostle Paul said:
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
Let's examine these two verses for a moment. The immediate context is, we know in part and prophesy in part. The Scriptures were still being written. The entire revelation of God, to man, was still unfinished. Signs and wonders followed Christ's ministry to show He was the Son of God and they followed the infant church to show this assembly was a work of God. In verse 10, many say this points to the coming of the Lord, "But when that which is perfect is come.....", however, this view is not supported by the immediate context. The Greek word translated "PERFECT", comes from the word τέλειος and primarily means: "Complete, full or mature". In the immediate context, Paul was talking about the completion of Holy Scripture. When it is completed our knowing "in part" (v.10), will be done away with.
In this same way, the extraordinary gifts will cease as the revelation of God is completed. Once Scripture is complete, then the need for signs and wonders is rendered null. We know that Scripture is complete and nothing more will be added or taken away. This is not to say that miracles don't take place in God's Providence, they certainly do. Men have fallen from aircraft without a parachute and survived. A young boy fell 8 floors down an elevator shaft and didn't even have one broken bone. But miracles wrought out in Providence are not extraordinary gifts given to individuals. As previously stated, these have ceased because they are no longer needed. The infant church is no longer an infant church. Scripture is no longer being added on too.
Signs and wonders, did not happen as often as one might think in Scripture. God used these to often denote dispensational changes or in support of a God sent messenger. Often, hundreds of years passed without one single sign or wonder.
The Charismatic movement, which claims it has it's beginnings going back to Pentecost, ignores historical accuracy. This movement was not known in recent past church history. The original movement from whence it comes was known as "Pentecostalism". This movement was started around 1901 and the fathers of it are considered to be Charles Parham and William Seymour. The Charismatic movement did not begin until the 1960's. Going back to the 1600s,1700s and 1800's there is no mention of any church calling itself Charismatic or leaning on the "charismata" as a doctrine.
If charismatics were being honest with the Scriptures, then they would have to answer the following. If the power of healing, by laying on of hands, was not fading away, then why do we have these statements in God's Holy Word?
2Co 12:7 And by reason of the exceeding greatness of the revelations, that I should not be exalted overmuch, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, that I should not be exalted overmuch.
2Co 12:8 Concerning this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
Why did Paul have to beseech the Lord three times and yet it was not removed? Why didn't he just heal himself or have one of the other Apostles lay hands on him? Again:
1Ti 5:23 Be no longer a drinker of water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
Timothy was often sickly and apparently suffered from a stomach infection or some other bowel disease. Why did Paul not just cure him? Why continue to let him suffer? Could it be, that Paul no longer could perform this extraordinary gift? Still again:
Php 2:26 since he longed after you all, and was sore troubled, because ye had heard that he was sick:
Php 2:27 for indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, that I might not have sorrow upon sorrow.
Why didn't Paul come to the rescue of his dear friend? Epaphroditus was healed in the Providence of God not through the laying on of hands. God can do as he pleases. Heal some and send others to their death. And again?
2Ti 4:20 Erastus remained at Corinth: but Trophimus I left at Miletus sick.
WHAT.... Paul left him behind sick? Why wouldn't have Paul healed him and brought him along?
There is much the Charismatics overlook in favor of their experiences but if experiences don't match up with Scripture, then you better be asking: From where do these experiences come from? Are you sure there not phony signs and wonders that come from the Devil himself? This final thought... even though this was given to the Jews, it has it's application today:
Mark_13:22 for there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show signs and wonders, that they may lead astray, if possible, the elect.
As to the "gifts" of the Spirit, we still possess the ordinary gifts, as God gives to each the ability to Love the brethren, to Preach, to teach, to heal (as one does as a physician), each as the Lord sees fit.
However as to the extraordinary gifts, these have passed away for now and will be seen again as the Kingdom approaches. The apostle Paul said:
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
Let's examine these two verses for a moment. The immediate context is, we know in part and prophesy in part. The Scriptures were still being written. The entire revelation of God, to man, was still unfinished. Signs and wonders followed Christ's ministry to show He was the Son of God and they followed the infant church to show this assembly was a work of God. In verse 10, many say this points to the coming of the Lord, "But when that which is perfect is come.....", however, this view is not supported by the immediate context. The Greek word translated "PERFECT", comes from the word τέλειος and primarily means: "Complete, full or mature". In the immediate context, Paul was talking about the completion of Holy Scripture. When it is completed our knowing "in part" (v.10), will be done away with.
In this same way, the extraordinary gifts will cease as the revelation of God is completed. Once Scripture is complete, then the need for signs and wonders is rendered null. We know that Scripture is complete and nothing more will be added or taken away. This is not to say that miracles don't take place in God's Providence, they certainly do. Men have fallen from aircraft without a parachute and survived. A young boy fell 8 floors down an elevator shaft and didn't even have one broken bone. But miracles wrought out in Providence are not extraordinary gifts given to individuals. As previously stated, these have ceased because they are no longer needed. The infant church is no longer an infant church. Scripture is no longer being added on too.
Signs and wonders, did not happen as often as one might think in Scripture. God used these to often denote dispensational changes or in support of a God sent messenger. Often, hundreds of years passed without one single sign or wonder.
The Charismatic movement, which claims it has it's beginnings going back to Pentecost, ignores historical accuracy. This movement was not known in recent past church history. The original movement from whence it comes was known as "Pentecostalism". This movement was started around 1901 and the fathers of it are considered to be Charles Parham and William Seymour. The Charismatic movement did not begin until the 1960's. Going back to the 1600s,1700s and 1800's there is no mention of any church calling itself Charismatic or leaning on the "charismata" as a doctrine.
If charismatics were being honest with the Scriptures, then they would have to answer the following. If the power of healing, by laying on of hands, was not fading away, then why do we have these statements in God's Holy Word?
2Co 12:7 And by reason of the exceeding greatness of the revelations, that I should not be exalted overmuch, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, that I should not be exalted overmuch.
2Co 12:8 Concerning this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
Why did Paul have to beseech the Lord three times and yet it was not removed? Why didn't he just heal himself or have one of the other Apostles lay hands on him? Again:
1Ti 5:23 Be no longer a drinker of water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
Timothy was often sickly and apparently suffered from a stomach infection or some other bowel disease. Why did Paul not just cure him? Why continue to let him suffer? Could it be, that Paul no longer could perform this extraordinary gift? Still again:
Php 2:26 since he longed after you all, and was sore troubled, because ye had heard that he was sick:
Php 2:27 for indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, that I might not have sorrow upon sorrow.
Why didn't Paul come to the rescue of his dear friend? Epaphroditus was healed in the Providence of God not through the laying on of hands. God can do as he pleases. Heal some and send others to their death. And again?
2Ti 4:20 Erastus remained at Corinth: but Trophimus I left at Miletus sick.
WHAT.... Paul left him behind sick? Why wouldn't have Paul healed him and brought him along?
There is much the Charismatics overlook in favor of their experiences but if experiences don't match up with Scripture, then you better be asking: From where do these experiences come from? Are you sure there not phony signs and wonders that come from the Devil himself? This final thought... even though this was given to the Jews, it has it's application today:
Mark_13:22 for there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show signs and wonders, that they may lead astray, if possible, the elect.
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You seem to forget that God is of the supernatural, for the record though the charasmatics are not the only ones who believe in the spirit he is not of flesh and he is not natural it doesn't take a bible degree to understand that if the gifts are not natural they supernatural and if it isn't of the flesh it is of the spirit which is unseen and doesn't work along the lines of this world it never has.
Let me ask you this when you were saved was a natural occurence? did you feel rebron like life was poured in you and did you know the joy of the spirit or did you follow doctrine and study under carnel thinking? Do you notice the difference bewteen the two thing I presented? There is a massive difference between the gifts of the holy spirit and the gifts we are given as humans there is likewise a huge difference between understanding with the spirit and the carnel mind, I am a man of science and logic and reasoning I used mathemical equations laws of physics and science for most things but even I understand that the spirit works in dofferent ways than the carnel mind if I am able to know his voice and know the flow of the spirit and understand that the gifts of the spirit are not limited by then how much more should others who don't have the kind of scientific mind I do?
If you ask me that is saying something
Let me ask you this when you were saved was a natural occurence? did you feel rebron like life was poured in you and did you know the joy of the spirit or did you follow doctrine and study under carnel thinking? Do you notice the difference bewteen the two thing I presented? There is a massive difference between the gifts of the holy spirit and the gifts we are given as humans there is likewise a huge difference between understanding with the spirit and the carnel mind, I am a man of science and logic and reasoning I used mathemical equations laws of physics and science for most things but even I understand that the spirit works in dofferent ways than the carnel mind if I am able to know his voice and know the flow of the spirit and understand that the gifts of the spirit are not limited by then how much more should others who don't have the kind of scientific mind I do?
If you ask me that is saying something
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S
There are hundreds of millions of charismatic believers who don't watch or agree with the flakes on TV. They do not officially nor unofficially represent "mainstream" charismatics. For every one mega charismatic church with a celebrity pastor doing flaky things on TV there are tens of thousands of other charismatic churches that don't agree with their flakiness who don't deserve to be lumped in the same category. Charismatic christians complain about the nutcases on TV as much as non charismatic christians do.
S
8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
It uses prophecy, tongues and the gift of the word of knowledge as examples that will cease when that which is perfect is come.
That which will remain being Faith Hope and Love. Not sure how faith is needed in eternity but maybe it means that we will always be dependent on God. Hope, and expectation of good things for eternity. And Love , well we all understand how that endures forever.
No need to prophecy, or speak in tongues and interpret in heaven, because we will know as we are known, which explains some of the purposes of these gifts in the body now. We are encouraged and comforted by them pertaining to the uncertainties of this life. I have heard many confirmations from the gifts of the Spirit that have helped those who were facing direction in ministry. Just like in the book of Acts.
Prophecies do fail. Why? People are not perfect. Sometimes they miss it. This is not the same kind of prophesy as the OT prophets which ended with John the Baptist. If people call themselves prophet as a title and ask to be called prophet they aren't. It is ok to say that there are prophets in that church meaning people who operate in that gift, as they did say such things in the book of Acts, but once someone takes the name as a title and introduces themselves as Prophet Bob, just walk away. Don't even shake their hand.
9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
It uses prophecy, tongues and the gift of the word of knowledge as examples that will cease when that which is perfect is come.
That which will remain being Faith Hope and Love. Not sure how faith is needed in eternity but maybe it means that we will always be dependent on God. Hope, and expectation of good things for eternity. And Love , well we all understand how that endures forever.
No need to prophecy, or speak in tongues and interpret in heaven, because we will know as we are known, which explains some of the purposes of these gifts in the body now. We are encouraged and comforted by them pertaining to the uncertainties of this life. I have heard many confirmations from the gifts of the Spirit that have helped those who were facing direction in ministry. Just like in the book of Acts.
Prophecies do fail. Why? People are not perfect. Sometimes they miss it. This is not the same kind of prophesy as the OT prophets which ended with John the Baptist. If people call themselves prophet as a title and ask to be called prophet they aren't. It is ok to say that there are prophets in that church meaning people who operate in that gift, as they did say such things in the book of Acts, but once someone takes the name as a title and introduces themselves as Prophet Bob, just walk away. Don't even shake their hand.
Certainly God is Spirit and demands that we worship Him in Spirit and Truth. The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Godhead. His primary role in helping believers is to point them to Christ. He speaks not of Himself and exalts the Lord and Savior.
As God His work is supernatural. When a person is "born from above" (John 3:1-10), he is passive, just as he was in natural conception. This mysterious and supernatural work upon the person, alters that person from being an enemy of God to considering what God has said. This consideration and guiding influence brings one to repentance and laying hold of Christ as his/her Savior.
I take no exception to the supernatural work of God, just the supernatural abilities of believers today as expressed in my earlier post. The exceptional Apostolic gifts are no more. You mentioned God giving gifts of knowledge to all men and this is true but I was referring to the ordinary spiritual gifts of the believers today. The ability to discern spiritual things, thus the ability to understand Scripture. Also, the ability to discern error. Deception is still possible but I don't believe God will leave one of His own deceived for years and years.
If you are defending the extraordinary and/or Apostolic gifts, then you still have to answer my questions from the previous post are risk being disingenuous.
As God His work is supernatural. When a person is "born from above" (John 3:1-10), he is passive, just as he was in natural conception. This mysterious and supernatural work upon the person, alters that person from being an enemy of God to considering what God has said. This consideration and guiding influence brings one to repentance and laying hold of Christ as his/her Savior.
I take no exception to the supernatural work of God, just the supernatural abilities of believers today as expressed in my earlier post. The exceptional Apostolic gifts are no more. You mentioned God giving gifts of knowledge to all men and this is true but I was referring to the ordinary spiritual gifts of the believers today. The ability to discern spiritual things, thus the ability to understand Scripture. Also, the ability to discern error. Deception is still possible but I don't believe God will leave one of His own deceived for years and years.
If you are defending the extraordinary and/or Apostolic gifts, then you still have to answer my questions from the previous post are risk being disingenuous.
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I just want to shed some light on this statement you made: " Not sure how faith is needed in eternity but maybe it means that we will always be dependent on God. "
Your confusion comes from the often taught error that Paul was talking about the appearance of the Lord in this verse, he was not. Many commentators have given the same interpretation. I would like to submit the following repost for your consideration.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
Let's examine these two verses for a moment. The immediate context is, we know in part and prophesy in part. The Scriptures were still being written. The entire revelation of God, to man, was still unfinished. Signs and wonders followed Christ's ministry to show He was the Son of God and they followed the infant church to show this assembly was a work of God. In verse 10, many say this points to the coming of the Lord, "But when that which is perfect is come.....", however, this view is not supported by the immediate context. The Greek word translated "PERFECT", comes from the word τέλειος and primarily means: "Complete, full or mature". In the immediate context, Paul was talking about the completion of Holy Scripture. When it is completed our knowing "in part" (v.10), will be done away with. We now have the whole of God's revelation to man, from Gen.1:1 to Rev. 22:21.
Faith and hope remain until the Lord comes. Once He is with us in Eternity, faith and hope will be no more"
Rom_8:24 For in hope were we saved: but hope that is seen is not hope: for who is hoping for that which he is seeing?
Love abides forever and ever. Amen.
Your confusion comes from the often taught error that Paul was talking about the appearance of the Lord in this verse, he was not. Many commentators have given the same interpretation. I would like to submit the following repost for your consideration.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
Let's examine these two verses for a moment. The immediate context is, we know in part and prophesy in part. The Scriptures were still being written. The entire revelation of God, to man, was still unfinished. Signs and wonders followed Christ's ministry to show He was the Son of God and they followed the infant church to show this assembly was a work of God. In verse 10, many say this points to the coming of the Lord, "But when that which is perfect is come.....", however, this view is not supported by the immediate context. The Greek word translated "PERFECT", comes from the word τέλειος and primarily means: "Complete, full or mature". In the immediate context, Paul was talking about the completion of Holy Scripture. When it is completed our knowing "in part" (v.10), will be done away with. We now have the whole of God's revelation to man, from Gen.1:1 to Rev. 22:21.
Faith and hope remain until the Lord comes. Once He is with us in Eternity, faith and hope will be no more"
Rom_8:24 For in hope were we saved: but hope that is seen is not hope: for who is hoping for that which he is seeing?
Love abides forever and ever. Amen.
B
I do know a significant hand full of non-denominational and Pentecostal charismatic folk. (Of course anecdotal evidence is not a standard) They complain about some of the tv wackadoos, but many follow some of the tv nuts. Even the ones who argue against one tv guy or another, when you visit their church, they are up to the same stuff. But like I said, personal experience don't amount to nothing.
I personally left the charismatic church because the; let's call them inconsistencies. I did go to several before I abandoned the whole thing.
I personally left the charismatic church because the; let's call them inconsistencies. I did go to several before I abandoned the whole thing.
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Your conclusions are as my own. I found many who denounced the TV nuts but their church often had the same follies. Perhaps the saddest aspect of talking with charismatic believers is their lack of knowledge where Scripture is concerned. They hold tenaciously to a few verses that seem to give their way of thinking credibility.
One I used to work with constantly denied God's Sovereignty. Out of one side of her mouth she would give lip service to it and then out of the other tell you how many times God would not do something. She denied God was behind calamity and did not believe that God had anything to do with illness or death. Equally grieving, was the constant elevating of the Holy Spirit, to the point, it began to overshadow the person and work of Jesus Christ.
Many deny the "New Birth" of John 3:1-10, by trying to make it the same thing as the Baptism in the Spirit of Acts. Two distinctly different things for two distinctly different purposes.
Glad to hear the Lord led you out from it.
One I used to work with constantly denied God's Sovereignty. Out of one side of her mouth she would give lip service to it and then out of the other tell you how many times God would not do something. She denied God was behind calamity and did not believe that God had anything to do with illness or death. Equally grieving, was the constant elevating of the Holy Spirit, to the point, it began to overshadow the person and work of Jesus Christ.
Many deny the "New Birth" of John 3:1-10, by trying to make it the same thing as the Baptism in the Spirit of Acts. Two distinctly different things for two distinctly different purposes.
Glad to hear the Lord led you out from it.
B
Yep, that's pretty much my experience. This is beside the point but one of the charismatic women I have known, denied that Jesus used the whip that he made when he went to clear out the temple and run the money changers out the worst is with the prophesying every Sunday every prayer meeting that never comes to pass. Now be clear I'm not a cessationist. I have had someone prophesy over me that did come to pass. But that was like one out of very many. In fact it's the only one that I had ever heard from any of them that came to pass. So it's like 1 out of an uncountable number. But also God made an ass speak. I wonder why they never do healing the sick as Paul prescribed in his letter to Timothy, take the sick to the elders of the church and they will anoint with oil and the prayer of faith shall save the sick. Meh, anyway it's not my goal to bash any one and I'm in danger of doing so here.
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Yes, that was the point I was trying to address in my points 8 to 10.
In 1 Cor, all the 9 gifts were mentioned. That letter was written during the transitional period between Acts 7 and Acts 28, where signs and wonders were still given to Paul, as well as the Gentile churches, as a sign to Israel.
But by the time Paul wrote his prison epistles and pastoral letters after Acts 28, do you notice he no longer talk about tongues, in Ephesians 4 for example
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
In 1 Cor, all the 9 gifts were mentioned. That letter was written during the transitional period between Acts 7 and Acts 28, where signs and wonders were still given to Paul, as well as the Gentile churches, as a sign to Israel.
But by the time Paul wrote his prison epistles and pastoral letters after Acts 28, do you notice he no longer talk about tongues, in Ephesians 4 for example
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
You agree that God did change in his dealings and instructions with man correct?
You agreed that there was a time when physical circumcision was necessary from us, but now, no.
There was a time when we were not allowed to eat meat, followed by us being allowed to eat meat, after the flood, but no blood, and now all animal is clean for eating (Acts 10).
There are changes on how God deal with man, that you can find throughout the Bible,
I think what you meant is that God doesn't change in his character, he is always love, always good etc etc. That all of us can agree.
You agreed that there was a time when physical circumcision was necessary from us, but now, no.
There was a time when we were not allowed to eat meat, followed by us being allowed to eat meat, after the flood, but no blood, and now all animal is clean for eating (Acts 10).
There are changes on how God deal with man, that you can find throughout the Bible,
I think what you meant is that God doesn't change in his character, he is always love, always good etc etc. That all of us can agree.
Israel was promised a kingdom on earth with Jesus ruling over them from Jerusalem.
In that kingdom, he promised Israel that there will be no one sick, so that explains the numerous healings he did, to give them a taste of life in that kingdom.
What you are talking about now is more of a "spiritual kingdom" correct? If you are thinking of healing too, that comes only at the rapture, as Paul would explain to us from Romans 8:18 onwards.
In that kingdom, he promised Israel that there will be no one sick, so that explains the numerous healings he did, to give them a taste of life in that kingdom.
What you are talking about now is more of a "spiritual kingdom" correct? If you are thinking of healing too, that comes only at the rapture, as Paul would explain to us from Romans 8:18 onwards.
The problem with that kind of doctrine, that "God always wants you healed", is that you cannot avoid concluding that "So if you are not, it must be your fault".
While if you view healing as how Paul would view it, at Romans 8:18 onwards, that is the way the Body of Christ is suppose to understand about healing.
While if you view healing as how Paul would view it, at Romans 8:18 onwards, that is the way the Body of Christ is suppose to understand about healing.
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