Back-loading Works into the Gospel:

[Yahshua]

You subscribe to Amillennialism?

Did you create this? It's pretty helpful to visualize the different positions. Thanks.

 

[JaumeJ]

We call God, Lord. Jesus-Yeshua is God-Yahweh.

In the Hebrew it would be Adon. This may be translated as Lord or Master. This title was conferred upon people of renown, though not to the degree it was used in referring to our Maker.

 

[throughfaith]

Hello ChosenbyHim, the only way that good works, etc., truly become part of our salvation, front-end or back-end, is when they are said to be a ~necessary~ part of our salvation, that doing them is a requirement, without which we cannot be saved. On the other hand, saying that a true Christian WILL change, WILL end up doing good works (because of the changes that have been wrought in them by God .. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:1-5, 8-9, 10) is very different than saying that he/she MUST do these things (as if doing them is some sort of requirement of their salvation).


True Christians act like unbelievers at times, and unbelievers can and do act like Christians at times/in part, but unbelievers hardly have the same regard for God, for sin, for the spiritual well-being of the lost, etc. IOW, in the end, the two groups can be distinguished by what they do, because unbelievers typically ACT like unbelievers, and 'true' Christians typically ACT like Christians.


While this is certainly part of the evidence that bears out the claims of being a Christian, it is not enough evidence, in general. There are true Christians, who (of course) have the inner witness of the Spirit, who constantly question their salvation (for any number of reasons).

On the other hand, there are those who spend their entire lives in church claiming and truly believing themselves Christians who are deceived (one of the best examples of this is found in Matthew 7:22-23). I, for instance, was baptized as an infant and was raised (so to speak) in the church, and I always believed that I was really and truly a believer, until the day I actually become one that is, two months after my 30th birthday.


I've got no argument with any of that, but you seem to be arguing against yourself to a degree, against what you said earlier in this thread


True, which also makes the changed life/lifestyle that Christians choose to lead (rather than continuing in the sinful lifestyle that they used to lead), the good works that we do BECAUSE we love God, our abhorrence of and repentance from sin, etc., etc., some of the best evidence that we really and truly are who we claim to be, does it not

God bless you!

~Deut

View attachment 223088​

The problem with " grieving over sin " as an indicator is that people question " am i grieving enough " . Atheists, Jehovah witnesses , Mormons, Catholics have committed suicide over " grieving over their sin "

 

[throughfaith]

That in incorrect. The Bible makes it crystal clear that our good works do prove that we are saved. As James says, faith without works in dead.

JAMES 2: FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

And what exactly is repentance other than genuinely TURNING FROM sins and idols and TURNING TO God and Christ for forgiveness and salvation. Indeed, the Lord Jesus Christ made it crystal clear that repentance is for the remission of sins: And [Christ] said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. (Luke 24:46,47)

Christians need to be extremely careful that in their zeal to maintain salvation is by grace through faith, they do not neglect the proclamation of two things: (1) the necessity of repentance before salvation and (2) the necessity of good works after salvation. In addition to this, the necessity of Christian baptism is a commandment.

There has been far too much Easy Believism, and it is time that Christians get back to Gospel Truth.

Whilst i do agree with you on many other things . You are doing what the OP states , with respect . You are back loading.

 

[Guojing]

Did you create this? It's pretty helpful to visualize the different positions. Thanks.

Nope, its from the Internet

 

[throughfaith]

View attachment 223078



Back-loading Works into the Gospel:​

Front-Loading works into the Gospel would like something this:

“For you to be saved you have to be willing to give up your life first”

“You need to stop sinning and live holy, or else you cannot be saved”

“In order for you to be saved, you need to be baptized in water, keep the sacraments, do penance, and join our church to be saved.”

The first two statements are made by a lot of preachers in Christendom, where as the last one is an actual requirement of Roman Catholicism. And obviously Roman Catholicism is not Christianity. Roman Catholicism is a false religion. But works based plans of salvation are not just presented in the cults and false religions out there, but are also preached within different sects and denominations within Christendom and what can be referred to as mainline Protestantism.

And usually this happens when Salvation and Discipleship are Combined together. For example, When a preacher says to a sinner:

“Before you can be saved, you have to be willing to follow Christ Jesus for the rest of your life.”

What that preacher just did is combine Salvation with Discipleship. And the two are different. Salvation is not discipleship. And Discipleship is not Salvation. Salvation is a one time event, where as Discipleship is a life long process.

Another example of combining Salvation and Discipleship together would be a preacher saying something like this:

“If you want to be saved, you have to be willing to forsake all, give up your life, even hate your own life and be willing to deny yourself and follow Christ. In order for you to be truly saved, you must do these things.”


This again is a prime example of mixing Salvation with Discipleship. Hence, what you have here is works based salvation. Where one is Front-Loading works into the Gospel. But Salvation is not of works, but it is only by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is the Gift of God. Not of Works, Lest any man should Boast. (Eph. 2:8-9).

Now those examples I just gave you deal with someone who, once again, is front-loading works into the Gospel. But what does it look like when someone is back-loading works into the Gospel?

Front-loading works into the Gospel is actually rather obvious. Since they are actually telling you up front that you must do those works in order to be saved. But when someone is back-loading works into the Gospel, it isn’t that clear, since it is more subtil. But here are a few examples of back-loading works into the Gospel:

“Well, while we are saved by grace through Faith without works. Still though, true saving faith Will produce good works.”

“We are saved by grace through faith in Christ, BUT true saving grace will change you, and you will bring forth fruit and good works, if you have been truly saved.”

“We are not preaching works based salvation, BUT we are preaching Salvation-Works.”

“We are saved by grace through faith that Works.”

“We are not saved by works, BUT true salvation and true faith will have works.”

“We are saved by grace through Faith, BUT true saving faith will have the good works. Good works will accompany saving faith.”

Now those are some examples of a person who is back-loading works into the Gospel.

Telling a sinner when they get saved, that they Will do good works. And that those good works are proof that they have been truly saved.
Well, again, all Christians should do good works and continue in good works. But our works do not prove we are saved. For there are a lot of religious people out there who do good works, and yet they are lost. Catholics out there do good works (A lot of them stand up for the unborn outside of abortion mills), yet they are still lost. Mormons do good works, and a lot of them may live moral lives, yet they are still lost. False Jehovah’s witnesses, a lot of them do good works, and their women even dress very modestly, Yet though they are also Lost and unconverted. For they are not trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation, but our trusting in their works to save them. And the Mormons and False Jehovah’s witnesses both reject the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ.

How a Christian can know they are saved is by the Holy Spirit within him bearing witness with his spirit that he is a child of God (Rom. 8:16), and also by simply believing the testimony and written record of the Holy Scripture (1 John 5:10-13).
We are not saved by our works, nor are we kept by our works. We are saved by Grace through Faith and that’s it. We are Saved by Grace through Faith alone in Christ Alone. Period.

No “Buts” and No “Ifs”

Salvation is entirely by grace through Faith. Plus Nothing and Minus Nothing.
Once again, every born again child of God Should do good works, and should bear fruit and we all should live a changed life. We all should get sin out of our lives, and walk in obedience unto God. And yet though, all these good things and good works which every child of God should be doing, is not what saves us, nor does it keep us saved. We ought to do good works and bring forth fruit unto God because we love God and because we are thankful and appreciate the great salvation which He hath given unto us.

Furthermore, if a man or woman repents toward God and places their faith and trust in Jesus Christ alone to save them, then they are saved.
Whether that saved person does good works or not, whether that saved person serves God or not, whether that saved person grows in their faith or not, that person will be in Heaven when they die. Since their salvation is not based upon their service, performance, or their good works. But rather, their salvation is based solely upon Christ Jesus and Him alone. Jesus Christ did all the necessary work for our salvation to be complete. Jesus Christ’s blood atonement and finished work at Calvary is the only thing that can save us and get us to heaven.

The good works which we do, loving one another, serving in a local church, preaching the Gospel and doing evangelism, our separation from the world, the Holy Living and walk of obedience that we do will earn us rewards, crowns, millennial inheritance and the privilege to rule and reign with Christ during His earthly Reign in His Messianic Kingdom.

When a person gets saved, even though they should grow in grace, and although they should do good works and should live holy and soberly. However though, there is no guarantee that that saved person will live holy, since Christian growth is not automatic. That saved person may not do any good works, and he may not grow at all. That person may just remain carnal and a spiritual babe, sadly.

For Christian service, growing in grace, living holy, bearing good fruit, all these things deal with sanctification and the Christian life and walk, and all these good things are volitional. They are not automatic. Whether a Christian does these good works and lives holy, is up to him. He has to make that choice.

Therefore to conclude, We should serve God and live for Him with the right motive. In other words, we should serve our Lord Jesus Christ because we love Him, and want to glorify Him and His holy word. Hence, we should do all these good works for the very reason I just mentioned.

Nevertheless though, we are not saved by good works, Christian service, discipleship, denying ourselves, or any other good work. We are saved only by God’s grace. And it is God’s grace which saved us, and it is also God’s grace that keeps us saved.

With permission, can i use this on another forum please?

 

[Ogom]

Do you not believe YESUAH when he says that he that ENDURETH UNTIL THE END, OR did JESUS LIE ???

24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,

26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?

29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,

30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.

 

[p_rehbein]

Too, too funny. Just read another Thread, and can not help but laugh as to how it applies to this Thread.

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/is-it-ok-to-question-church-doctrine.196034/

 

[throughfaith]

24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,

26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?

29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,

30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.

Pre crucifixion.

 

[bud62]

That in incorrect. The Bible makes it crystal clear that our good works do prove that we are saved. As James says, faith without works in dead.

JAMES 2: FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

And what exactly is repentance other than genuinely TURNING FROM sins and idols and TURNING TO God and Christ for forgiveness and salvation. Indeed, the Lord Jesus Christ made it crystal clear that repentance is for the remission of sins: And [Christ] said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. (Luke 24:46,47)

Christians need to be extremely careful that in their zeal to maintain salvation is by grace through faith, they do not neglect the proclamation of two things: (1) the necessity of repentance before salvation and (2) the necessity of good works after salvation. In addition to this, the necessity of Christian baptism is a commandment.

There has been far too much Easy Believism, and it is time that Christians get back to Gospel Truth.

1 john 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. [ This tells us that we are not to commit sin,]
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. [This tells us if we choose to sin, we are choosing to be lost], [neither do we know him if we will choose to sin. [ to sin is denying the faith.]
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
[ this is telling us not to let no one deceive us, that we can commit sin and still be saved].
[ And that being righteous is obeying God, like YESUAH said he OBEYED ]
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
[This is telling us if we will commit sin when we know that it is sin, that we belong to Satan
and not one of GOD's Saved ] [And that YESUAH came to show us, that through faith we can
overcome committing SIN] [ and he came to destroy the works of the devil that we are doing]
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
[this is telling us that if we are committing sin, that we have not came to the point of being saved]
HEBREWS 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

 

[John146]

You can call it back loading, but Paul and James definitely do not. So kindly read this passage in its entirety:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:8-10)

While this does not appeal to those who preach the false gospel of Easy Believism, Paul makes it crystal clear that those who are saved are created for good works, which were in fact ORDAINED by God. "That we should walk in them" simply means in plain English that Christians are required to do good works, and those are in fact evidence that they were truly saved by grace.

The example given by James is this:

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

If one gives clothes and food to the needy, this proves their salvation? How often? If I fail to do this, it proves I’m not really saved? How much works does one need to prove his salvation? And who are we proving it to? Other believers?

 

[pottersclay]

Imo I think what we look at as works is really in reality obedience.
Obedience is how we serve the Lord.
Seeking the Lord and his righteousness is a redirection. Not for self but for God and others.
Trusting the Lord will provide for us as we provide for others.
Looking for ways to bless someone is a mirror image of God imo.
It is your father's ( good pleasure) to give you the kingdom.

I believe to much emphasis is made on one person's ability to be that person first that God has called you to be then go out and show your faith. I believe you should show your faith first to become that person God's called you to be.
Jesus taught that if one is trustworthy with few much will be added.

 

[Ogom]

..

2 Timothy 4

2 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and

encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when

people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own

desires, they will gather around them a great number of

teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn

their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, keep your

head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge

all the duties of your ministry.

 

[Nehemiah6]

If one gives clothes and food to the needy, this proves their salvation?

There's no need to reduce this to the ridiculous. James uses just one example. There are hundreds of others you could come up with (if you were serious).

 

[Nehemiah6]

Whilst i do agree with you on many other things . You are doing what the OP states , with respect . You are back loading.

So you are another one who does not really like the full and true Gospel. People who cherry pick verses and ignore the truth do more harm than good, and mislead others.

The Lord Jesus Christ Himself personifies the Gospel. Christ Himself is the Gospel. And what were the first words which He preached as recorded?

From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. (Mt 4:17).

And this is exactly what John the Baptist had said: In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. (Mt. 3:1,2)

But the message did not change on the day of Pentecost, when Peter preached the Gospel under the power and inspiration of the Holy Spirit: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)

And shortly after that he said the very same thing: Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; (Acts 3:19)

And for those who imagine that Paul preached another Gospel, we have these words from Paul: And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent... And how I [Paul] kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.(Acts 17:30; 20:20,21)

So while Christ and the apostles *front-loaded* the Gospel with the commandment to repent, Christians who *know better* imagine this is back-loading the Gospel! Thus Easy Believism has come to dominate evangelical churches.

If a preacher fails to preach repentance for the remission of sins, and the necessity of Christian baptism and good works after salvation, he is simply tickling the ears of his hearers.

 

[John146]

There's no need to reduce this to the ridiculous. James uses just one example. There are hundreds of others you could come up with (if you were serious).

My point was, if I give to the needy this proves I’m saved. No amount of works proves one is saved. And who are we proving it to?

 

[Nehemiah6]

No amount of works proves one is saved.

Not so. Even the apostle John says exactly what James says, and in fact makes good works the evidence of salvation: But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? ... Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.( 1 John 3:17; 4:7,8)

And who are we proving it to?

(1) Ourselves, (2) God and Christ, (3) Christian brothers and sisters, and (4) the unbelieving world.

 

[throughfaith]

So you are another one who does not really like the full and true Gospel. People who cherry pick verses and ignore the truth do more harm than good, and mislead others.

The Lord Jesus Christ Himself personifies the Gospel. Christ Himself is the Gospel. And what were the first words which He preached as recorded?

From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. (Mt 4:17).

And this is exactly what John the Baptist had said: In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. (Mt. 3:1,2)

But the message did not change on the day of Pentecost, when Peter preached the Gospel under the power and inspiration of the Holy Spirit: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)

And shortly after that he said the very same thing: Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; (Acts 3:19)

And for those who imagine that Paul preached another Gospel, we have these words from Paul: And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent... And how I [Paul] kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.(Acts 17:30; 20:20,21)

So while Christ and the apostles *front-loaded* the Gospel with the commandment to repent, Christians who *know better* imagine this is back-loading the Gospel! Thus Easy Believism has come to dominate evangelical churches.

If a preacher fails to preach repentance for the remission of sins, and the necessity of Christian baptism and good works after salvation, he is simply tickling the ears of his hearers.

You cannot isolate the word ' repent ' and then mash them all together out of their context. There is a context to each usage of the word . Change their minds from what ? And do you mean by ' easy believing ' what ever it is i probably agree with you .

 

[throughfaith]

So you are another one who does not really like the full and true Gospel. People who cherry pick verses and ignore the truth do more harm than good, and mislead others.

The Lord Jesus Christ Himself personifies the Gospel. Christ Himself is the Gospel. And what were the first words which He preached as recorded?

From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. (Mt 4:17).

And this is exactly what John the Baptist had said: In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. (Mt. 3:1,2)

But the message did not change on the day of Pentecost, when Peter preached the Gospel under the power and inspiration of the Holy Spirit: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)

And shortly after that he said the very same thing: Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; (Acts 3:19)

And for those who imagine that Paul preached another Gospel, we have these words from Paul: And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent... And how I [Paul] kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.(Acts 17:30; 20:20,21)

So while Christ and the apostles *front-loaded* the Gospel with the commandment to repent, Christians who *know better* imagine this is back-loading the Gospel! Thus Easy Believism has come to dominate evangelical churches.

If a preacher fails to preach repentance for the remission of sins, and the necessity of Christian baptism and good works after salvation, he is simply tickling the ears of his hearers.

' Full and true Gospel " is this a verse . Full and true good news ?

 

[throughfaith]

This is also known as ' Lordship salvation '