Why it will be a pre-trib rapture and why the rapture takes place.

[pottersclay]

Well, the ritual of "the day of firstfruit" describes the high priest gathering the first bushel of barley of the new harvest from the earth, baking unleavened cakes with it, and then offering it to the Almighty where it is either fully consumed or whatever's left placed on the altar and burned to allow its smoke specifically to ascend to heaven.

The Messiah is the fulfillment of the High Priest, and so on the day of firstfruits, He was to present an unleavened offering of the earth to the Father that was to ascend to heaven. The souls who were raised to life when He raised was this firstfruit offering. This is why the Messiah couldn't be touched by Mary, not until he finished the ritual. Later he returned and allowed people (like Thomas) to touch him.



I believe all the righteous will be raised when Daniel 12:2 is fulfilled in the future, I just think that's at the mass resurrection event just before the millennium. Those raised with the Messiah were the firstfruits offering He was to give to the Father as High Priest on the Day of firstfruits.

It was like a guarantee of the future harvest He's been working to bring to the Father.

Brother you cut me to the chase here this is the whole of it all.....love it.

 

[pottersclay]

Now jesus is the Passover lamb but also the high priest.
The high priest duty's were to present the offerings to the Lord.
There is a particular offering know as the grain offering which goes to the wave offering.
Did you know that Jesus was not only the Passover lamb but also all the offerings that were presented to the Lord.
As I said earlier the new testament is very Jewish.
And these feast and offerings are God's appointed times they are not man made.

 

[Absolutely]

Ok. But where do you suppose the 24 elders with white robes and crowns came from in revelation 4? To have robes and crowns means these are humans not angels.

Yes and remember John was told by that saint in heaven "I am your fellow servant"

But beyond that,remember the martyrs were not allowed from under the altar.
"Until your number is fulfilled "

Then right away we see innumerable number of martyred ones out in the area of the throne.

But Jesus and the patriarchs are the firstfruits to heaven

So yes the 24 elders and others are of the patriarchs risen and ascended after the cross.

 

[Absolutely]

I left it out because that was not the subject of the thread. The Marriage Feast is not subject to the TIMING of the Rapture.

But if we examine the two parables of the Marriage Feast, Matthew 22 and Matthew 25, what scripture do you give for the Wedding Feast IN HEAVEN. Is not the contrary the case? The five wise Virgins "bought" oil for their vessels. When did they do it? BEFORE THEY FELL ASLEEP. That is, IN THEIR LIFETIMES. Then the cry goes out "The Bridegroom COMETH!" From where does He COME? Heaven of course. So the meeting of the Bridegroom and the Virgins CANNOT be in heaven. The Bridegroom IS COME!

Then, when the five foolish Virgins are found short of oil, they are told to "buy from those that sell". If the five wise Virgins bought during their lifetimes, then "those that sell" MUST BE ON EARTH. But this is not all.

The five foolish Virgins return to try to enter the Marriage Feast but are refused. If it was in heaven then they would have to have a second journey to heaven - which is not said, nor found anywhere in scripture. But this is not all.

The Parable starts with "The KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS LIKE ... ." That is, the Parable is about the Kingdom, NOT "IN" heaven, but the "Kingdom (out) "OF" Heaven. God's Kingdom is set up on EARTH by the COMING of the BRIDEGROOM. From Genesis 1:26-28, through Daniel, through the prophets of the Old Testament, through the prophesies of the New, the KINGDOM is set up ON EARTH. It is;

"Thy (God's) Kingdom COME (to earth), Thy will be dome ON EARTH as it is in heaven"

The Marriage Feast is LIKE the Kingdom - ON EARTH. And if so IT NEEDS NO RAPTURE!

Finally, if you produce Revelation 19 as proof, then I can only say that, YES, the Wedding Guests are raptured, and the Wedding Guests have the right Garment. But there is no talk of the Wedding Feast ACCOMPLISHED. The very next thing is they depart on white horses to FIGHT - not Feast. If the Wedding Feast is LIKE the Kingdom, then Armageddon must FIRST be won, and then only comes the Wedding. The Kingdom must be established if the Wedding Feast is to be feasted. There is no scripture that says the Wedding Feast is ACCOMPLISHED in Revelation 19.

Lol the rapture is to heaven..to the marriage...to the feast.

Read the 10 virgin parable.

 

[pottersclay]

There are little scriptures in the gospel that give suttle hints that many over look
Let's look at them and they will reveal not only the rapture to take place but also establish a time line and establish truth of a millenia to come physically.
Remember these are God's appointed times not man's.

 

[Yahshua]

Yes I see where you're coming from. Thanks for taking the time to share it.

Hosea, like the other prophets, predicted a time of chastisement among the Gentiles, but gives the time of this chastisement as "two days" (6:2), and a recovery of the Nation IN the third day. To this, Acts.15:14-16 agrees. That is, the Church must be complete before Israel are recovered. If we interpret scripture with scripture (for private interpretation is not allowed - 2nd Pet.1:20), we have no choice than to look at history and give the TIME of Hosea's "DAY" as 1,000 years (Ps.90:4, 2nd Pet 3:8). This chastisement is NOT Jacob's Trouble. It is the fulfillment of the terms of the Covenant of Law. Jacob's Trouble is NOT connected with the SCATTERING of Israel, but the GATHERING of Israel under David again (Jer.30:3-10).

I agree with you regarding Hosea 6:2 and tying 2 Peter 3:8 to it. I just have a few questions to understand your timing of Jacob's trouble after the completion of the church...

So we agree the passage prophesies that after 2 millennia, in the 3rd millennium that follows, the people would be "raised up" and live in the Lord's sight.

Do you interpret this "raising up" as the resurrection with the gathering, or simply as a gathering only?

Also, when does Israel accept the gentile king after the 2 millennia if they live in the Lords sight after being raised up? I guess I'm asking if you're saying whether the restoration of Israel begins with the worship of the antichrist/gentile king or not.

Now, we have to decide if the Book of Revelation has to do with the Church age, OR if it has to do PRIMARILY with events around the REVEALING of Jesus from the sky. The Book derives its name for the Greek word "Apokalypsis", which means, "THE REVEALING"

I believe it's both, revealing the Messiah as king and judge during this age into the next...but I respect your viewpoint as goes into interpreting text...

But here's an interesting question I thought of as I read the last potion of your reply regarding the second coming...

In Revelation 5 we have a scene where an angel asks, "who is worthy to take the scroll and loose its seals?" And John tells us that no one anywhere is found worthy.

Rev 5:2-3
And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” 3 But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it

The reality of this weighs so heavily on him that John starts to cry, as if to express hopelessness.

Of course, we know that the Messiah is alone worthy, and we next read that He appears and takes the scroll...but prior to Him appearing the passage says there was no one in heaven worthy enough...

If we know the Messiah is in heaven right now, sitting on the throne, how can this passage still be true if still set in the future?

 

[Absolutely]

I left it out because that was not the subject of the thread. The Marriage Feast is not subject to the TIMING of the Rapture.

But if we examine the two parables of the Marriage Feast, Matthew 22 and Matthew 25, what scripture do you give for the Wedding Feast IN HEAVEN. Is not the contrary the case? The five wise Virgins "bought" oil for their vessels. When did they do it? BEFORE THEY FELL ASLEEP. That is, IN THEIR LIFETIMES. Then the cry goes out "The Bridegroom COMETH!" From where does He COME? Heaven of course. So the meeting of the Bridegroom and the Virgins CANNOT be in heaven. The Bridegroom IS COME!

Then, when the five foolish Virgins are found short of oil, they are told to "buy from those that sell". If the five wise Virgins bought during their lifetimes, then "those that sell" MUST BE ON EARTH. But this is not all.

The five foolish Virgins return to try to enter the Marriage Feast but are refused. If it was in heaven then they would have to have a second journey to heaven - which is not said, nor found anywhere in scripture. But this is not all.

The Parable starts with "The KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS LIKE ... ." That is, the Parable is about the Kingdom, NOT "IN" heaven, but the "Kingdom (out) "OF" Heaven. God's Kingdom is set up on EARTH by the COMING of the BRIDEGROOM. From Genesis 1:26-28, through Daniel, through the prophets of the Old Testament, through the prophesies of the New, the KINGDOM is set up ON EARTH. It is;

"Thy (God's) Kingdom COME (to earth), Thy will be dome ON EARTH as it is in heaven"

The Marriage Feast is LIKE the Kingdom - ON EARTH. And if so IT NEEDS NO RAPTURE!

Finally, if you produce Revelation 19 as proof, then I can only say that, YES, the Wedding Guests are raptured, and the Wedding Guests have the right Garment. But there is no talk of the Wedding Feast ACCOMPLISHED. The very next thing is they depart on white horses to FIGHT - not Feast. If the Wedding Feast is LIKE the Kingdom, then Armageddon must FIRST be won, and then only comes the Wedding. The Kingdom must be established if the Wedding Feast is to be feasted. There is no scripture that says the Wedding Feast is ACCOMPLISHED in Revelation 19.

You NEED it to say certain things.

I compiled the ingredients.

That is the difference.

For example you theorize the wise "bought" oil.
Maybe so,but it DOES NOT SAY "HOW " they got it.
I do not NEED it to say that.
..but for you,you made some theory pivotal.

Then you try and theorize away the marriage and feast in heaven.

But Jesus said "I will not drink of the fruit of the vine again till I drink it anew with you in my fathers house "
Not only that but the bride has become the wife IN HEAVEN in rev 19.

Also at the last supper Jesus said other things tying the saints to heaven.(in that last supper betrothal like setting.)

Way too many things to just reframe.
Reframing verses has a motive

 

[Absolutely]

Hello again!

Just fyi, no human being has yet been resurrected in their immortal and glorified bodies. Lazarus, the little girl, those who came out of the tombs after Christ resurrected, all were raised in the same mortal body and died again. Jesus was the first fruits of the first resurrection, the church is next, then the two witnesses and the great tribulation saints at Christ's return to the earth to end the age. All of these are apart of the first resurrection. Every believer who has died from the on-set of the church until the resurrection, their spirits are in the presence of the Lord in heaven, waiting for the resurrection from that side.

You have to factor in that all those you listed were pre cross.

Pre him descending into paradise.
It was those patriarchs that were risen and taken to heaven as firstfruits.
They were/are not " dead in christ".

So if you leave them out,you leave out king David who was the forerunner to Jesus.

But as someone pointed out John encountered them in heaven.

 

[Yahshua]

Yes and remember John was told by that saint in heaven "I am your fellow servant"

But beyond that,remember the martyrs were not allowed from under the altar.
"Until your number is fulfilled "

Then right away we see innumerable number of martyred ones out in the area of the throne.

But Jesus and the patriarchs are the firstfruits to heaven

So yes the 24 elders and others are of the patriarchs risen and ascended after the cross.

Yeah, I don't see having some of the saints already in glory in heaven as a break of the prophetic promise to the rest of us. If anything it feels like a tithe offered, just like the levitical priest were required to do to the Almighty based on whatever increase they received from the other tribes back in the OT.

 

[Absolutely]

Yeah, I don't see having some of the saints already in glory in heaven as a break of the prophetic promise to the rest of us. If anything it feels like a tithe offered, just like the levitical priest were required to do to the Almighty based on whatever increase they received from the other tribes back in the OT.

Yes sir.
There is a lot there.

 

[Absolutely]

Now jesus is the Passover lamb but also the high priest.
The high priest duty's were to present the offerings to the Lord.
There is a particular offering know as the grain offering which goes to the wave offering.
Did you know that Jesus was not only the Passover lamb but also all the offerings that were presented to the Lord.
As I said earlier the new testament is very Jewish.
And these feast and offerings are God's appointed times they are not man made.

Yes wheat and barley

Grapes.

Grape harvest is the jews.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

This pretrib rapture thing has Jesus making several trips back to earth, and makes Jesus into a liar and a false prophet.

...except, at the time of "Rapture ['to the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR']," He does NOT come "back to earth" (He does "return" to the earth at Rev19, His Second Coming to the earth point-in-time [see also Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 'when he will RETURN FROM the wedding'... THEN the meal [G347], i.e. the earthly MK age commencing...])

 

[Absolutely]

Yes wheat and barley

Grapes.

Grape harvest is the jews.

Note both grapes and grains were presented at the last supper.

Also note the passover meal was finished at the wine betrothal part where Jesus covenants with them.

 

[Absolutely]

The only other member I see in cc that unpacks the bride/betrothal/ rapture is vco.
It was at his thread several yrs ago that I joined cc.

It is so uncanny the body of Christ has almost zero interest in the center of Gods purpose

It is like a banker that has no interest in money.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

It was those patriarchs that were risen and taken to heaven as firstfruits.
They were/are not " dead in christ".

Daniel was told he would "rest [that is, in death] and stand in thy lot [that is, be 'resurrected' 'to stand again' on the earth] at the END OF THE DAYS," that is, at the END of a VERY SPECIFIC SET OF DAYS [ the 'days' in that context--which CONTEXT is referring to 2nd half of trib, so at the END of THOSE particular "days"].

Thus, I DISAGREE that it was any "OT saints" who were taken to Heaven on Firstfruits (His Resurrection Day).

And I also disagree that it was them who make up the "24 elders".

[I've mentioned in past posts I believe the term "was found" (5:4) provides timing-clues, not to mention 1:1/1:19c/4:1 also provides the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" timing clue to everything following 4:1 (to Rev19 and parts of 20, anyway)]

So if you leave them out,you leave out king David who was the forerunner to Jesus.

Peter (I believe, for a REASON) told those in Acts 2:29 (some time after Christ's Resurrection Day), "Men, brothers, it is permitted me to speak with freedom to you concerning the patriarch David, that both he died and was buried, and his tomb is among us unto this day "... Peter is not just saying, "[it] is among us UNTO THIS DAY" as a souvenir. No.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The only other member I see in cc that unpacks the bride/betrothal/ rapture is vco.

Naw, man... I talk about it a lot, too.





2Cor11:2 "For I am jealous as to you [PLURAL, corporate 'you'] with the jealousy of God. For I have betrothed you [PLURAL, corporate 'you'] TO ONE HUSBAND, to present A PURE/CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR] to Christ." [He is not marrying "more than ONE" Virgin. (Matt25:1,10 is "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" not the "MARRIAGE" itself)]

...and that Rev19:7 (re: "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" pertaining to "the MARRIAGE") is distinct from Rev19:9 (re: the INVITED "[guests] [PLURAL]" to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER--i.e. the earthly MK age, which at that point in the chronology, only the "INVITING" has been completed [on the earth, in the trib yrs], not the actual feast itself which commences upon His "RETURN" to the earth)

 

[KJV1611]

Naw, man... I talk about it a lot, too.





2Cor11:2 "For I am jealous as to you [PLURAL, corporate 'you'] with the jealousy of God. For I have betrothed you [PLURAL, corporate 'you'] TO ONE HUSBAND, to present A PURE/CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR] to Christ." [He is not marrying "more than ONE" Virgin. (Matt25:1,10 is "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" not the "MARRIAGE" itself)]

...and that Rev19:7 (re: "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" pertaining to "the MARRIAGE") is distinct from Rev19:9 (re: the INVITED "[guests] [PLURAL]" to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER--i.e. the earthly MK age, which at that point in the chronology, only the "INVITING" has been completed [on the earth, in the trib yrs], not the actual feast itself which commences upon His "RETURN" to the earth)

If you’re still waiting to become the bride of Christ you have completely missed the boat. The new man in us the result of the union of Christ and our soul.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

If you’re still waiting to become the bride of Christ you have completely missed the boat. The new man in us the result of the union of Christ and our soul.

"then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away [in one singular-ACTION] in clouds to [the] meeting [noun] the Lord in [the] air, and so [/thus/in this manner] always WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord we shall be" - 1Th4:17


This ^ "WITH [G4862 - syn - UNIONed-with]" word is distinct from the "with [G3326 - meta - accompanying]" word as found in Matt25:10--the "10 Virgins/Bridesmaids" parable (<--which is not about US).

So... I do believe we are positionally/legally in union with Him even now... but that 1Th4:17 is speaking of literally... at a particular, singular point in time (the point in time of our "rapture [/caught away / caught up / snatch / harpagēsometha / harpazo]" at which point-in-time [singular point-in-time] the "clothed upon" thing also takes place, also the "change" [see Phil3:21 re: the "body"... and 1Cor15:51-52 along with 2Cor5:2-4])

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I've been meaning to ask you ( @KJV1611 ) this... do you also believe "Armageddon" has also already taken place?

Or, do you view that as representative of something else that takes place all throughout time and history??



[Rev19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5 = Isa24:21-22a[23]'s FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words in that passage (that is, at the time of His Second Coming to the earth)... do you believe this has already taken place??]

 

[KJV1611]

"then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away [in one singular-ACTION] in clouds to [the] meeting [noun] the Lord in [the] air, and so [/thus/in this manner] always WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord we shall be" - 1Th4:17


This ^ "WITH [G4862 - syn - UNIONed-with]" word is distinct from the "with [G3326 - meta - accompanying]" word as found in Matt25:10--the "10 Virgins/Bridesmaids" parable (<--which is not about US).

So... I do believe we are positionally/legally in union with Him even now... but that 1Th4:17 is speaking of literally... at a particular, singular point in time (the point in time of our "rapture [/caught away / caught up / snatch / harpagēsometha / harpazo]" at which point-in-time [singular point-in-time] the "clothed upon" thing also takes place, also the "change" [see Phil3:21 re: the "body"... and 1Cor15:51-52 along with 2Cor5:2-4])

The marriage is between Christ and our souls individually, there is no corporate marriage.

The translation has nothing to do with the wedding feast nor the marriage, the translation is the translation out of this earthly body into our heavenly bodies.