If the saved that is dead is in heaven ,With GOD ,Why dose the BIBLE say that the dead can not PRAISE the LORD .

[Absolutely]

Was Jesus and the thief about to enter a disembodied state of being? It's a state of being because only with a body do we have location. Paradise without location Paul thought he may have experienced.

2 Corinthians 12


12 It is necessary to boast; nothing is to be gained by it, but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I know a person in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of 3 And I know that such a person—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows— 4 was caught up into Paradise and heard things that are not to be told, that no mortal is permitted to repeat.

Paradise as a state of being without location is biblical.

Revelation 2:7
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’

Revelation 22:1-3
Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life,

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Paradise

Paradise is a place

 

[Absolutely]

P.S. not to cause confusion, I don't mean to claim third heaven is literally physical space, but I do think it's a lot like it, as opposed to a place. Instead of a location, it's more like a whole dimension, above our space-time. Which can be referred to as place I suppose, but it's not confined or localized, like people usually imagine a "place" to be, it's everywhere and can manifest itself anywhere.

Yes
Gods throne is in the third heaven

 

[Absolutely]

well I don't deny location I believe it's also a state of being. You deny that without reason. The term "third heaven" doesn't prove anything. But the fact that it can be experienced with or without a body does lend credence to it being both a state and a location.

Show me where it is "a state of being"

 

[John146]

So what is your answer? Does it say absent from the body is present with the Lord?

Paul is saying if he dies (depart from the body) he will be with Christ which is better than to continue living in the flesh.

 

[Benadam]

When the effects of the judgement at the tower of Babel are reversed,

Just as an aside, at Pentacost the languages were unified in the Word that proceeded from the mouth of the Apostles.
Is there more to the judgement at Babel that is yet reversed? Am I not considering something?

Revelation 2:7
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’

Revelation 22:1-3
Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life,

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Paradise

Paradise is a place

Speaking of the tree of life

John 4
31 Meanwhile the disciples were urging him, “Rabbi, eat something.” 32 But he said to them, “I have food to eat that you do not know about.” 33 So the disciples said to one another, “Surely no one has brought him something to eat?” 34 Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to complete his work.


The river of life

John 4:13

Jesus said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again, 14 but those who drink of the water that I will give them will never be thirsty. The water that I will give will become in them a spring of water gushing up to eternal life.” 15

It's a place that did or did not have material boundaries? If it did does that mean the land beyond it's boundaries were forbidden? Would they lose something if they went there?

 

[Benadam]

Show me where it is "a state of being"

Was there a material boundary Adam was not permitted to cross? A land on earth that would be sinful for him to be?

 

[posthuman]

Just as an aside, at Pentacost the languages were unified in the Word that proceeded from the mouth of the Apostles.
Is there more to the judgement at Babel that is yet reversed? Am I not considering something?

fundamentally, we're not all speaking the same language - our tongues are still confused. we speak Chinese, English, Spanish, German, Urdu... all these are products of what God did at Babel.
when we are all together with Him on That Day, we won't be speaking different tongues; we will all be speaking in one tongue, all understanding clearly each other, no translation necessary; no extended explanation necessary.

that's a really good observation about pentecost/shavuot -- i don't disagree. i see that ((and the sign of tongues, too)) as a kind of 'firstfruits' of the reversal of Babel , but IMO ((and i think easily demonstrable)) the judgement at Babel has not been yet lifted.

beyond just the languages aspect, even we who speak the same language, for example English, often have trouble understanding each other. we kind of each have private definitions of words, or use certain vocabulary to describe concepts that other people don't share. the conversation you and @Absolutely are having here, i see as an example of that ((btw i love absolutely, and i love you too -- i really don't want to take sides in that and i really hope you too don't develop any kind of bitterness over it)). what do we mean by 'location' ? what do we mean by 'state of being' ? what does it mean that God, who is spirit, 'dwells in' or 'is in' heaven? is that a location? does God have states of being? how does God define these things? Solomon says in one place that God is "in" heaven ((Ecclesiastes 5:2)) and in another place that even the heaven of the heavens can't contain Him ((2 Chronicles 2:6)) -- what does he mean by this? why do we even have to ask 'what does so-and-so mean by ...' ?
as my wife would say, 'Solomon has his own Babel' -- all of us have a kind of internal language that doesn't always easily translate to another's; we have difficulty/barriers to communicating purely and clearly.

to me, the thing that happened at the tower of Babel will one day be repealed ((Zephaniah 3:9 ?)) -- and a sign of that will be not just an universal language but that we have no longer any difficulty in communicating concepts to each other. i don't see that as having been fulfilled; here we are, brothers and sisters, in the BDF, and we still have lots of arguments going on where both sides seem to be talking right past each other, unable to get a point across. i really don't think it's all willful rejection of truth; i think a substantial part of it is often basic failure to understand each other at the deepest levels.

 

[Benadam]

fundamentally, we're not all speaking the same language - our tongues are still confused. we speak Chinese, English, Spanish, German, Urdu... all these are products of what God did at Babel.
when we are all together with Him on That Day, we won't be speaking different tongues; we will all be speaking in one tongue, all understanding clearly each other, no translation necessary; no extended explanation necessary.

that's a really good observation about pentecost/shavuot -- i don't disagree. i see that ((and the sign of tongues, too)) as a kind of 'firstfruits' of the reversal of Babel , but IMO ((and i think easily demonstrable)) the judgement at Babel has not been yet lifted.

beyond just the languages aspect, even we who speak the same language, for example English, often have trouble understanding each other. we kind of each have private definitions of words, or use certain vocabulary to describe concepts that other people don't share. the conversation you and @Absolutely are having here, i see as an example of that ((btw i love absolutely, and i love you too -- i really don't want to take sides in that and i really hope you too don't develop any kind of bitterness over it)). what do we mean by 'location' ? what do we mean by 'state of being' ? what does it mean that God, who is spirit, 'dwells in' or 'is in' heaven? is that a location? does God have states of being? how does God define these things? Solomon says in one place that God is "in" heaven ((Ecclesiastes 5:2)) and in another place that even the heaven of the heavens can't contain Him ((2 Chronicles 2:6)) -- what does he mean by this? why do we even have to ask 'what does so-and-so mean by ...' ?
as my wife would say, 'Solomon has his own Babel' -- all of us have a kind of internal language that doesn't always easily translate to another's; we have difficulty/barriers to communicating purely and clearly.

to me, the thing that happened at the tower of Babel will one day be repealed ((Zephaniah 3:9 ?)) -- and a sign of that will be not just an universal language but that we have no longer any difficulty in communicating concepts to each other. i don't see that as having been fulfilled; here we are, brothers and sisters, in the BDF, and we still have lots of arguments going on where both sides seem to be talking right past each other, unable to get a point across. i really don't think it's all willful rejection of truth; i think a substantial part of it is often basic failure to understand each other at the deepest levels.

Thank you! That makes sense. All of it.
They were of one mind but that was not good. That is what will be good some day. Not today apparently.

I wouldn't allow a difference of opinion diminish respect due to someone like Absolutely or you or anyone for that matter. I personally feel a bond to anyone who loves Jesus. Thanks again for taking the time to write a thorough explanation. Grace and Peace.

 

[bud62]

First heaven is the atmosphere we see, under the firmament, second heaven is above the firmament, so to the "ends" of the universe. Where would the third be located if it were a physical place?

The 3rd HEAVEN IS WHERE GOD IS

 

[bud62]

the " dead' speak of those who were not in the way of the Lord. Those who are saved are not referred to by Jesus as dead but a sleep. Jesus is not dead HE is alive Jesus is in heaven we will be wth HIM when we die. This is HS promise to us.

All sleep in the earth till the 1st resurrection, The BIBLE tells us the even DAVID THE KING IS STILL ASLEEP IN THE EARTH,
JOB telling US that he will sleep in the GRAVE.
JOB 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all [is] vanity. HERE he nis saying that the man and the beast both go to the dust again
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. This is telling us ALL go to one place, and that is in the DUST. THIS MEANS THE SAVE AND THE LOST
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? He is asking here because of them that think that they go to HEAVEN, when they die, But they don't, they sleep in the grave till the first resurrection, when he says that all GO to, the same place already, in verse 3:20 He has done told us where they GO before he ask the question' HE is just trying tell us that they are not in HEAVEN,BUT sleep in the Grave till the first resurrection.

 

[Guojing]

I do not believe that they are in Heaven myself ,Neither do I believe that the BIBLE teaches , that they are in Heaven ,

You are correct. The OT saints are still in their grave, sleeping. Only at the 2nd coming will they then be resurrected.

Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

 

[bud62]

So what is your answer? Does it say absent from the body is present with the Lord?

THAT is because that when there is no time, if you was dead for a 1000 years , it would be like A blink of the eye, YOU haft to look at the BIBLE as A HOLE, YOU haft TO put ALL the verses to gather to see what what GOD is really saying, If you don't do this you will just make the BIBLE A lot of LIES, THE BIBLE says the DEAD can not praise the LORD, IF the where with the LORD they would be PRAISEING GOD FOR SURE, EXPEISHLY IF THEY WHERE IN HEAVEN, BUT their NOT, Did Lazarus say anything about being IN HEAVEN. HE was dead 4 DAYS

 

[bud62]

You are correct. The OT saints are still in their grave, sleeping. Only at the 2nd coming will they then be resurrected.

Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

That go's for us today to, THE BIBLE says ALL, that is us to

 

[SoulWeaver]

The 3rd HEAVEN IS WHERE GOD IS

That doesn't exactly answer my question... Are you saying God is in some third location physically? Because that doesn't make sense (to me personally) with the Bible teaching omnipresence of God... And also this does not explain where would that location be if it's a physical location which was my question. Because it's not under the firmament, and it's not above the firmament. So where is it

 

[Guojing]

That go's for us today to, THE BIBLE says ALL, that is us to

Well I personally believe we will instantly be in heaven at our deaths, since we are in the Body of Christ. We have a separate destiny from Israel.

But I guess it does not matter either way. When one falls asleep, time will pass in an instant.

 

[Scribe]

All sleep in the earth till the 1st resurrection, The BIBLE tells us the even DAVID THE KING IS STILL ASLEEP IN THE EARTH,
JOB telling US that he will sleep in the GRAVE.
JOB 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all [is] vanity. HERE he nis saying that the man and the beast both go to the dust again
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. This is telling us ALL go to one place, and that is in the DUST. THIS MEANS THE SAVE AND THE LOST
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? He is asking here because of them that think that they go to HEAVEN, when they die, But they don't, they sleep in the grave till the first resurrection, when he says that all GO to, the same place already, in verse 3:20 He has done told us where they GO before he ask the question' HE is just trying tell us that they are not in HEAVEN,BUT sleep in the Grave till the first resurrection.

Remember that Job and his friends as well as the author of Ecclesiastes often make comments about their own limited perception of the way things are and that does not mean that what they say is the WAY THINGS REALLY ARE. God had to come to Job and correct him and his friends. Solomon vents from a human perspective while trying to find meaning in life and backsliding in the process. His vents are not to be taken as doctrinal foundations as you have erroneous attempted to do concerning the afterlife. Your mistake is obvious to any first year bible school student. But you can't see it?

 

[bud62]

Remember that Job and his friends as well as the author of Ecclesiastes often make comments about their own limited perception of the way things are and that does not mean that what they say is the WAY THINGS REALLY ARE. God had to come to Job and correct him and his friends. Solomon vents from a human perspective while trying to find meaning in life and backsliding in the process. His vents are not to be taken as doctrinal foundations as you have erroneous attempted to do concerning the afterlife. Your mistake is obvious to any first year bible school student. But you can't see it?

1 King4:29 And God gave Solomon wisdom and understanding exceeding much, and largeness of heart, even as the sand that [is] on the sea shore.
4:30 And Solomon's wisdom excelled the wisdom of all the children of the east country, and all the wisdom of Egypt.
4:31 For he was wiser than all men; than Ethan the Ezrahite, and Heman, and Chalcol, and Darda, the sons of Mahol: and his fame was in all nations round about.
4:32 And he spake three thousand proverbs: and his songs were a thousand and five.
YESUAH SAYS THE SCRIPTURE can not be BROKEN, if you do not trust, then you are in trouble, THE BIBLE IS ALWAS RIGHT, AND WHEN WHAT WE BELIEVE DOSE NOT LINE UP WITH ALL THE BIBLE< WE
BIBLE is ALWAYS RIGHT, and when what we believe does not line up with all the scriptures, OUR belief is wrong, and THE BIBLE IS RIGHT, THE BIBLE will not guide us right if we think some of it is wrong.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The SOUl that SINETH it Shall die , GOD dose not lie , They will die. And be no more ,

Ezk 18:21, But if the wicked shall turn from all his sins that he has committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. The wicked, in this verse, has reference to regenerated children that commit sins, at times, and die=separated from their fellowship with God, temporary, until they repent, and return from all his sins, he shall surely live.

 

[Scribe]

1 King4:29 And God gave Solomon wisdom and understanding exceeding much, and largeness of heart, even as the sand that [is] on the sea shore.
4:30 And Solomon's wisdom excelled the wisdom of all the children of the east country, and all the wisdom of Egypt.
4:31 For he was wiser than all men; than Ethan the Ezrahite, and Heman, and Chalcol, and Darda, the sons of Mahol: and his fame was in all nations round about.
4:32 And he spake three thousand proverbs: and his songs were a thousand and five.
YESUAH SAYS THE SCRIPTURE can not be BROKEN, if you do not trust, then you are in trouble, THE BIBLE IS ALWAS RIGHT, AND WHEN WHAT WE BELIEVE DOSE NOT LINE UP WITH ALL THE BIBLE< WE
BIBLE is ALWAYS RIGHT, and when what we believe does not line up with all the scriptures, OUR belief is wrong, and THE BIBLE IS RIGHT, THE BIBLE will not guide us right if we think some of it is wrong.

You are not allowed to leave out scriptures that would give you the whole picture.
1 Kings 11:4
For when Solomon was old his wives turned away his heart after other gods, and his heart was not wholly true to the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.

1 Kings 11:7-8
7 Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon. (PRETTY STUPID OF A WISE MAN WOULDN'T YOU SAY)?
8 And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.
9 And the Lord was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the Lord God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice,

We must include all scriptures not just the ones we think support our private interpretations. There are many things Ecclesiastes says that you will agree are from the perspective of the man who is searching for meaning.

For example: 3: I sought in mine heart to give myself unto wine, yet acquainting mine heart with wisdom; and to lay hold on folly, till I might see what was that good for the sons of men, which they should do under the heaven all the days of their life.

Everyone interprets this as his testimony of some of the vain things he did; No one takes this verse and teaches that it is ok to be give yourself to alcoholism or to "lay hold on folly".

Not everything Ecclesiastes says is how things really are. They are his perspective while "laying hold on folly" and doing stupid things because his heart had been turned away.

As to David:
3Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

5Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in the LORD his God:

Don't trust in man, however powerful he is in this life the minute he dies his thoughts and plans perish. You can't take it with you, neither your wealth or your plans for greatness.
But those who trust in God have hope after they die. Their hope does not perish. Their hope for awaking in his likeness do not perish.
The truth is that as we study the Old Testament we find that very little is revealed about the afterlife.
The most prevalent thought that seems common throughout is that Sheol (hell) was a negative place for the wicked.
Jesus account of the rich man and Lazarus was one of the first most vivid explanations ever given.
More is revealed in the New Testament about the inheritance and glory promised to the saints than ever before and we should not go back to the limited revelation that the ancients had as the only verses to contemplate or make a doctrine out of.

Stephen saw Jesus standing at the right hand of the Father and said receive my spirit. And Jesus did. Moses and Elijah had a conversation with Jesus on the mount. They are not sleeping in a state of unconsciousness.

 

[bud62]

You are not allowed to leave out scriptures that would give you the whole picture.
1 Kings 11:4
For when Solomon was old his wives turned away his heart after other gods, and his heart was not wholly true to the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.

1 Kings 11:7-8
7 Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon. (PRETTY STUPID OF A WISE MAN WOULDN'T YOU SAY)?
8 And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.
9 And the Lord was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the Lord God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice,

We must include all scriptures not just the ones we think support our private interpretations. There are many things Ecclesiastes says that you will agree are from the perspective of the man who is searching for meaning.

For example: 3: I sought in mine heart to give myself unto wine, yet acquainting mine heart with wisdom; and to lay hold on folly, till I might see what was that good for the sons of men, which they should do under the heaven all the days of their life.

Everyone interprets this as his testimony of some of the vain things he did; No one takes this verse and teaches that it is ok to be give yourself to alcoholism or to "lay hold on folly".

Not everything Ecclesiastes says is how things really are. They are his perspective while "laying hold on folly" and doing stupid things because his heart had been turned away.

As to David:
3Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

5Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in the LORD his God:

Don't trust in man, however powerful he is in this life the minute he dies his thoughts and plans perish. You can't take it with you, neither your wealth or your plans for greatness.
But those who trust in God have hope after they die. Their hope does not perish. Their hope for awaking in his likeness do not perish.
The truth is that as we study the Old Testament we find that very little is revealed about the afterlife.
The most prevalent thought that seems common throughout is that Sheol (hell) was a negative place for the wicked.
Jesus account of the rich man and Lazarus was one of the first most vivid explanations ever given.
More is revealed in the New Testament about the inheritance and glory promised to the saints than ever before and we should not go back to the limited revelation that the ancients had as the only verses to contemplate or make a doctrine out of.

Stephen saw Jesus standing at the right hand of the Father and said receive my spirit. And Jesus did. Moses and Elijah had a conversation with Jesus on the mount. They are not sleeping in a state of unconsciousness.

Solomon was not the first man that fell over A woman David the king fell to, But the things that he said are OF GOD, And Solomon to, YESUAH SAYS THE SCRIPTURE CAN NOT BE BROKEN, ARE YOU calling YESUAH A liar, But it don't matter anyway, Solomon IS RIGHT AND you ARE very WRONG, AND GOD GIVE HIM KNOWLEDGE WAY MORE THEN YOU HEVE, I PRAISE GOD FOR GOD'S WORD, FOR IT's ALWAYS RIGHT, And learning that the BIBLE is ALWAYS RIGHT, HAS HELP ME LEARN VERY GOOD BLESSING OF THE THINGS THAT GOD HAS SHOWED ME IN HIS WORD , AND Hallelujah to YESUAH, SINCERELY William