Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"

[AlmondJoy]

Having the Spirit "breathed on" them doesn't mean the Spirit was "in" them. They were not given the Spirit UNTIL Jesus had been glorified, as John 7:39 states: "By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified."

"Not" given - "until" Jesus had been glorified.

does it really matter "how" he gave the Holy Ghost to them? the bottom line that you can't deny is that Judas received power from Jesus to cast out devils

Matt 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

verse 4 shows Judas was one of the 12 that received..... 4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot

HOW, IF HE WAS A DEVIL?

Mark 3:22-26 (KJV)
22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.
23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.

THE ANSWER IS SIMPLE....Judas "fell" like any Christian can today

John 13:27 (KJV)
27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

yes, Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas "would" betray him but satan didn't enter Judas until the last super

Acts 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

Judas had a part in the ministry and apostleship and he fell by transgression and so can any born-again believer.
"He that endureth to the end the same shall be saved"

 

[tribesman]

Both are errors. Trust and obey 'cos there's no other way, to feel happy in Jesus.

 

[Budman]

does it really matter "how" he gave the Holy Ghost to them? the bottom line that you can't deny is that Judas received power from Jesus to cast out devils

Again, the Bible clearly says they were not given the Spirit UNTIL Jesus had been glorified. John 7:39: "By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had NOT been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified."

Tell me, what does that word "not" mean?

Also, did Jesus also personally give that power to the man in Mark 9:38? "And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us."

Did Jesus deny that man was successfully casting out demons in His name?

Nope.

He said, "Do not hinder him."

And yet again, there will be those on Judgement Day who have cast out demons and healed the sick, (again, things not denied by Jesus) and yet Jesus will say to them, "I never knew you". (Matthew 7:21-23).

And also yet again, the Bible says Judas did not believe from the beginning (John 6:64) and was a thief throughout his time as a disciple (John 12:6).

You simply won't accept you lost this debate because of the sin of pride that infests your posts.

Judas had a part in the ministry and apostleship and he fell by transgression and so can any born-again believer.
"He that endureth to the end the same shall be saved"

You literally have no concept of context. None at all. That passage is speaking about many Tribulation believers (those saved during the Great Tribulation after the Rapture) whose physical lives will be saved (delivered) through that time. When the Bible uses the word "saved" it doesn't always mean spiritual salvation.

I'll ask again: At conversion, were all of our sins forgiven - past, present, and future?

Yes or No.

If you answer Yes, your whole case about losing one's salvation due to behavior falls apart.

I said this in my last post, and I'll say it again here. I pray you are in no position of church authority to teach anyone your twisted theology.

 

[tribesman]

...Judas received power from Jesus to cast out devils

HOW, IF HE WAS A DEVIL?

THE ANSWER IS SIMPLE....Judas "fell" like any Christian can today

Judas had a part in the ministry and apostleship and he fell by transgression and so can any born-again believer.
"He that endureth to the end the same shall be saved"

Did God have to learn anything about Judas?

 

[mailmandan]

Judas Iscariot did not lose his salvation, but was never saved in the first place.

John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Jesus did not lose Judas. Judas was already lost.

Syllogism

1. All given by the Father to Jesus are kept.
2. Judas was not kept.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father

Or, this way.

1. None of those given to Jesus by the Father will be lost by Jesus.
2. Judas is lost.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father.

John 13:18 - I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; BUT that the scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.'

In Matthew 10:1, we also see that Jesus gave His 12 disciples power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. This would include Judas Iscariot, yet Jesus referred to Judas Iscariot as an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Him! (John 6:71; 13:10-11). Apparently, Judas believed that Jesus' name has the power to cast out demons but did not truly believe in His name (John 1:12) and become a child of God, but instead was the son of perdition (John 17:12).

John 13:18 - I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; BUT that the scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.'

What does scripture say about Judas Iscariot?

Judas was an unbeliever and is a devil.....John 6:64-71
Judas was spiritually unclean......John 13:11
Judas is lost and is the son of perdition.........John 17:12
Judas was not kept by Jesus........John 17:12; 18:9
Judas was a traitor.....Luke 6:16
Judas was a thief and did not care for the poor........John 12:6
Judas was guilty of a greater sin.......John 19:11
Judas was influenced by Satan to betray Jesus.......John 13:2
Judas was entered by Satan.......Luke 22:3
Judas kills himself......Matthew 27:5
Judas' habitation to be desolate......Acts 1:20, Psalm 69:25

 

[OIC1965]

I wouldn't use Acts for doctrine here, but if you want to, I can respect that.

I don’t want to use a direct quote by Paul?

 

[OIC1965]

In the first place, John was not preaching the mystery of the Body of Christ.

He was an apostle to Israel, together with Peter and James (Galatians 2:9)

Who was the Apocalypse written to? Not Israel.

 

[OIC1965]

lol " That is completed at our glorification " ? Does it say that ?

Philippians 1:6.

Read the Bible more instead of polemics by Flowers and others.

 

[OIC1965]

What if you died just before you confessed that sin?

Straight to heaven.

 

[OIC1965]

probaton Sheep . We don't see Paul speaking about lost Probaton. Ones that were the Lost sheep of the house of Israel. Paul doesn't go on about sheep in the same way Jesus is referring to ' lost sheep ' The ones that heard the voice of the shepherd ect . Notice the 'sheep 'Jesus is referring to are lost .

Maybe Paul was talking about a flock of seagulls instead of sheep?

 

[OIC1965]

Could you share some context about the elect according to foreknowledge verse please ? What is Peter telling us telling them? Who is Peter writing to and about what?

There are not two classes of Christians, only one. Galatians 3:28.

You have one Bible for Jewish Christians and one for Gentile Christians. Bah!! Away with that nonsense.

 

[OIC1965]

Could you share some context about the elect according to foreknowledge verse please ? What is Peter telling us telling them? Who is Peter writing to and about what?

So Jewish Christians should ignore Paul and gentile Christians should ignore Peter, because of their recipients?!!

You have dismembered the New Testament and severed it from itself.

 

[OIC1965]

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Do you believe this verse refers to conversion ?

It’s referring to the entire scope of salvation. You see salvation only as conversion. That is a very one dimensional view of what salvation means.

 

[OIC1965]

Nope . You need to read the context. It's the same here :
8¶Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

9Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.

10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that that they may also
obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Clearly Paul is referring to Jews here . For the ELECTS sake = jews . That THEY MAY ALSO obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Nope . You need to read the context. It's the same here :
8¶Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

9Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.

10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that that they may also
obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Clearly Paul is referring to Jews here . For the ELECTS sake = jews . That THEY MAY ALSO obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

so Romans 8:28 to the end of the chapter applies only to Jews? I don’t think so.

 

[OIC1965]

When you say predestined to Justification, which verse says this ? We have verses telling us what we are predestined to . Adoption and inheritance.

So God predestined us to adoption and inheritance and justification was an afterthought? Lol.

 

[OIC1965]

When you say predestined to Justification, which verse says this ? We have verses telling us what we are predestined to . Adoption and inheritance.

How can you be predestined to adoption and inheritance while your justification is still a maybe yes, maybe no? It’s a ludicrous thought.

 

[OIC1965]

Nope . You need to read the context. It's the same here :
8¶Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

9Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.

10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that that they may also
obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Clearly Paul is referring to Jews here . For the ELECTS sake = jews . That THEY MAY ALSO obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Paul is writing to the elect in Romans 8:28 to end of chapter. That is the context. So you apparently think these verses only apply to Jews. What a mess you’re making!!

 

[OIC1965]

I think if we were left only with our bibles and nothing else ,we would be all the better for it . Which is an interesting thought .

But in your paradigm only some of the New Testament is for any individual, based on whether he or she is Jewish or not.

The epistles of Peter don’t apply to me because he wrote primarily to Jews and I am a gentile.

Jews are Christ’s sheep and Gentiles aren’t, according to you

When Paul called Gentile believers a flock, I guess they were a flock of seagulls or something?

This awful premise has caused you to have bad theology.

 

[throughfaith]

Maybe Paul was talking about a flock of seagulls instead of sheep?

 

[throughfaith]

So God predestined us to adoption and inheritance and justification was an afterthought? Lol.

1) Justification happens.
2) then everyone who is now saved he is THEN predestined to FUTURE redemption of the body .
No one was predestined in the mind of God before they were born .