NEW PRETRIB RAPTURE EVIDENCE!!!

[Bladerunner]

And yet martyrs too numerous to count are in heaven killed DURING THE GT.
But you say some are resurrected after the GT.

Sorry,i don't see it your way.

The greek can be translated fulfilled or completed.
Either way,it seems the innumerable number under your template needed to wait maybe?

Yes, If you look to Rev 7. you will find a multitude of people that have been evangelized by the 144,000 and were killed in Christ.
These are the Fellow servants or Brethren? which one I do not know.

I do know that these are carrying Palms..This is important to identify them later.

The Church already in Heaven prior to the Martyrs, had Harps to play.The Martyrs had nothing in their hands.

Those evangelized by the two witnesses had nothing either and of course the 144,000 had the make of their fathers on their forehead.

One other item.... Remember that chapter 7 is considered an interlude, a summary of events to be during Daniel's 70th week. This is between the 6th seal and the 7th seal... There is also an interlude between the 6th trumpet and the 7th Trumpet (10-14) and a short interlude between the 6th Bowl and the 7th bowl (Rev. 16:15-16).

SO SAD!

 

[heartofdavid]

Yes, If you look to Rev 7. you will find a multitude of people that have been evangelized by the 144,000 and were killed in Christ.
These are the Fellow servants or Brethren? which one I do not know.

I do know that these are carrying Palms..This is important to identify them later.

The Church already in Heaven prior to the Martyrs, had Harps to play.The Martyrs had nothing in their hands.

Those evangelized by the two witnesses had nothing either and of course the 144,000 had the make of their fathers on their forehead.

One other item.... Remember that chapter 7 is considered an interlude, a summary of events to be during Daniel's 70th week. This is between the 6th seal and the 7th seal... There is also an interlude between the 6th trumpet and the 7th Trumpet (10-14) and a short interlude between the 6th Bowl and the 7th bowl (Rev. 16:15-16).

SO SAD!

Point out the evangelizing.
And the palms . what is your point?

 

[BenjaminN]

Pre-tribulation rapture (escapism lulling God's people to passivity and inaction, about the reality of the beast, so that the beast can achieve his place, uncontested by God's people, so they as God's people may be removed by deception, from all power of resistance restricting the beast coming - 2 Thess 2:7 - Please pray about your message of deception being spread most certainly unknowingly and being used by wanting the best for God's children), inconveniently false doctrine, contrary to God's scriptured will. The first resurrected dead, being raptured with those believers alive, comes out of the great tribulation, and are those that died for their testimony in Christ.


Rev 20:5 - The ----first resurrection (happening AFTER the great tribulation)---- is of those who died during the great tribulation, by the hand of the beast:


Revelation 20 (ESV)

4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.


1Thess 4:16-17 - During the rapture, at the return of Christ, the first resurrection takes place, of those who died for their testimony of Christ:

1 Thessalonians 4 (ESV)

16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Read Matthew 24, for the consecutive ordered scripture, describing what comes before and after Christ's second coming - as per the Church fathers' explained Post-Tribulation, Pre-Millenium return of Christ, classical Millenialism.

John 16 (ESV)

33 I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world."

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Take a fresh look at these verses;

Rev 7;9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Now we know from 1 thes 4 that the dead rise FIRST.

That means these innumerable one HAD TO ARRIVE AFTER THE RAPTURE.
What a heavy revvie. LOL

Keep trying.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Impossible if the trib is on going and they ,the saints are there.

How do the dead rise FIRST if the saints are in heaven FIRST.
You are saying 1 thes 4 is not true.

Greetings hearofdavid!

That group with white robes which no man can count, are those who will become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath, referred to as 'the great tribulation saints.'

Previous to the introduction of these in white robes, John was told to write letters to the seven churches. Then John sees this great number of white robed saints and the Elder asks him who they are and where they came from, which would demonstrate that they are not the church, but another group. In addition, John says that he doesn't know who this group is.

In further support of this, in chapters 1 thru 3 the word 'church/ekklesia' is used 19 times and the word 'Saints' is never used interchangeably in those chapters. Then after the end of chapter 3, the word 'church' is never used again, but is replaced with Saints/hagios. The reason for this is because Rev.4:1 is a prophetic allusion to the gathering of the church by that voice that sounds like a trumpet which says "Come up here."

The next time the church is mentioned is in Rev.19:7 as the bride who is present at the wedding of the Lamb in heaven and who is receiving her fine linen, white and clean, which takes place during the tribulation period.

Then, as the Lord is descending down to the earth to engage the beast, the kings and their armies, the bride/church is seen following the Lord out of heaven and riding on white horses and wearing her fine linen, white and clean that she will have received at the wedding of the Lamb. A glimpse of the church following Christ down to the earth is also seen in Rev.17:14

"They (beast and ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

The "called, chosen and faithful followers that will be with the Lord, are those who will have previously been resurrected and caught up prior to the wrath of God, which begins at the opening of the first seal.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Impossible if the trib is on going and they ,the saints are there.

How do the dead rise FIRST if the saints are in heaven FIRST.
You are saying 1 thes 4 is not true.

The error is that, you are confusing the church with the great tribulation saints. These are two different groups.

After the church has been removed from the earth and during the time of God's wrath, there will be a great number of people from every nation, tribe, people and language who will become believers. They will keep the testimony of Jesus and the word of God and will neither worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark. It also states that they will not love their lives so much as to shrink away from death. They will be under great persecution from the beast of whom scripture states will make war against and conquer them. This is the same group who is resurrected after Jesus returns to the earth to end the age as revealed in Rev.20:4-6. There is no mention of the living being changed and caught up in that scripture, but only a resurrection. There will also be saints who will make it through the tribulation alive. These will be those who enter into the millennial kingdom and along with the remnant of Israel, will repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom.

 

[Magenta]

Greetings hearofdavid!

He is no longer here

 

[Absolutely]

Take a fresh look at these verses;

Rev 7;9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Now we know from 1 thes 4 that the dead rise FIRST.

That means these innumerable one HAD TO ARRIVE AFTER THE RAPTURE.
What a heavy revvie. LOL

Also, if I may add;
There are other martyrs spoken of earlier in rev. They were told to wait (back under the altar) until their number was complete.
the fact that the martyrs are now allowed before the throne indicates that the number of martyrs is complete.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

Take a fresh look at these verses;

Rev 7;9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Now we know from 1 thes 4 that the dead rise FIRST.

That means these innumerable one HAD TO ARRIVE AFTER THE RAPTURE.
What a heavy revvie. LOL

Came out of, indicates that they were in. You can hardly come out of something that you were never in.

Jesus said he would come to collect his after the tribulation of that day.

But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24:29‭-‬31 ASV
https://bible.com/bible/12/mat.24.29-31.ASV

 

[Ahwatukee]

Came out of, indicates that they were in. You can hardly come out of something that you were never in.

Jesus said he would come to collect his after the tribulation of that day.

But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24:29‭-‬31 ASV
https://bible.com/bible/12/mat.24.29-31.ASV

Hello Blackpowerduelist!

That scripture above from Matthew 24:30-31 is not the gathering of the church, but the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.

Those being gathered by the angels will be those who make it alive through the time of God's wrath, both the great tribulation saints and the remnant of Israel.

Just fyi, when the Lord appears angels do not gather us. When that event takes place, the dead in Christ will rise first, immortal and glorified. Immediately after that, the those still alive will be changed immortal and glorified and will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. Then the Lord will take the entire church, His bride, back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us as promised in John 14:1-3.

The Lords appearing to gather His church and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, are two separate events, both taking place at different times and having different purposes.

 

[BenjaminN]

Hello Blackpowerduelist!

That scripture above from Matthew 24:30-31 is not the gathering of the church, but the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.

Those being gathered by the angels will be those who make it alive through the time of God's wrath, both the great tribulation saints and the remnant of Israel.

Just fyi, when the Lord appears angels do not gather us. When that event takes place, the dead in Christ will rise first, immortal and glorified. Immediately after that, the those still alive will be changed immortal and glorified and will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. Then the Lord will take the entire church, His bride, back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us as promised in John 14:1-3.

The Lords appearing to gather His church and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, are two separate events, both taking place at different times and having different purposes.

Revelation 20 (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

You

Hello Blackpowerduelist!

That scripture above from Matthew 24:30-31 is not the gathering of the church, but the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.

Those being gathered by the angels will be those who make it alive through the time of God's wrath, both the great tribulation saints and the remnant of Israel.

Just fyi, when the Lord appears angels do not gather us. When that event takes place, the dead in Christ will rise first, immortal and glorified. Immediately after that, the those still alive will be changed immortal and glorified and will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. Then the Lord will take the entire church, His bride, back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us as promised in John 14:1-3.

The Lords appearing to gather His church and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, are two separate events, both taking place at different times and having different purposes.

You will have to show that with scripture.

 

[BenjaminN]

You

You will have to show that with scripture.

The "first resurrection" happens after the great tribulation, at the return of Christ Yeshua, with the rapture.

Revelation 20 (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


1 Thessalonians 4 (KJV)

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

The "first resurrection" happens after the great tribulation, at the return of Christ Yeshua, with the rapture.

Revelation 20 (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


1 Thessalonians 4 (KJV)

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The dead in Christ, and then those who are alive all this is after the tribulation. This ain't showing anyone going before the tribulation.

 

[BenjaminN]

The dead in Christ, and then those who are alive all this is after the tribulation. This ain't showing anyone going before the tribulation.

Yes agreed, Christ Yeshua's next and final coming is post-tribulation, pre-millenium - classical millenialism as taught by the church fathers.