Plea not to receive mark of the beast because of waiting for rapture

[Scribe]

l used to believe in the rapture and now I do not after re-examining the bible and realizing that there is not enough biblical evidence.
I preferred to believe in the rapture theory because it is what is commonly preached. I liked the world ending that way. With me being raptured and not going through the tribulation. The theory suited me.
But I can no longer believe things which do not have enough evidence in the bible because they are appealing to me. Even if many pastors are preaching it and I have friends and family members and colleagues that believe in the rapture.


I am writing to plead that if you suspect that something is the mark of the beast or image to the beast, ask the Holy Spirit whether it is or not and make a decision not to receive it. The bible is infallible, but pastors are.

If they were demanded to receive the mark and worship the image I am sure they will know to refuse if the rapture has happened or not. It is not like they would say "oh the rapture has not occurred yet so it is ok to worship the image of the beast" They don't get damned to the Lake of Fire for unknowingly accepting it. It won't be a convenient method of transactions with no "worshipping of the image" act of denial of Christ involved. So interpretations on the timing of the rapture is not going to lead someone to eternal damnation by accepting the mark of the beast.

The next thing I would suggest is that you change your explanations to "you do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture" rather than not believing in a rapture. You are assuming that the pre-tribulation view of the rapture is equal to a belief in the rapture and that is not the case at all.
You are probably in agreement with what is usually called a "post tribulation, pre millennial view of the rapture" The rapture being that event spoken of by Paul where the dead in Christ rise first and they that are alive at the time are instantly changed into a glorified state like the resurrected but without seeing death first. This event (call it a rapture for brevity sake now that we have identified the scripture reference) is going to occur. We can be sure of that. No one should say they do not believe that this event will occur. That would be heretical. It would deny our blessed hope. When this event occurs in relation to the Great Tribulation is a matter of interpretation and you and many others believe that we will be divinely protected from the outpouring of judgments described in Revelation and then the rapture will occur at the end when Jesus comes down and begins His 1000 year reign. Is that correct? If so then say I do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, rather than I do not believe in a rapture. You should still preach about this event if you believe it happens at the end of the tribulation is not so important as that you believe in this event and that you hope for it and that you preach it to encourage and comfort your brothers and sisters like Paul said to do. Never disrespect the doctrine of the catching away (rapture) in an effort to disrespect the doctrine of the pretribulation rapture. In the scope of essential doctrine it is kind of a big deal!

 

[bud62]

l used to believe in the rapture and now I do not after re-examining the bible and realizing that there is not enough biblical evidence.
I preferred to believe in the rapture theory because it is what is commonly preached. I liked the world ending that way. With me being raptured and not going through the tribulation. The theory suited me.
But I can no longer believe things which do not have enough evidence in the bible because they are appealing to me. Even if many pastors are preaching it and I have friends and family members and colleagues that believe in the rapture.

Through the tribulation
If you read the bible verses that are commonly used to prove the rapture theory, you will realize that they actually relate to the actual Second Coming of Jesus (especially 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).
I believe that we are going to go through the tribulation like the Israelites did during the time of the plagues in ancient Egypt. If you look at the plagues of ancient Egypt (Exodus 7-11), you will realize that they are similar to the plagues in the book of Revelation 16.The Israelites went through the plagues and God preserved them.
And I believe that the same is going to happen in future. If God can shield ancient Israel from the plagues, then He has the ability to shield us from the plagues. The faithful Christians will not be affected by the plagues; it is only those who receive the mark of the beast and worship his image according to Revelation 16. Therefore faithful Christians do not need to fear the plagues. God sustained Elijah during the 3 years of no rain (1 Kings 17) and He will be able to sustain us. However, there are Christians who will be beheaded because they refused to receive the mark and refused to worship the beast, although they will not be affected by God’s plagues (Revelation 20:4).

Mark of the beast
If the rapture theory is not true, then when the beast tells us to receive his mark, then many pastors will tell Christians that this mark could not be the mark described in the book of Revelation, because the rapture must first come. They will tell Christians that since the rapture has not come then mark could not be the mark of the beast.

This will result in thousands if not millions of Christians receiving the actual mark of the beast because they would be waiting for a rapture that will not happen. This is a scary thought!

Those who believe in the rapture, especially the pre-rapture are more in danger of receiving the mark of the beast than those who do not believe that the rapture theory is true.

Part of me wishes that the rapture theory was true, because the thought of many Christians being deceived into getting the mark of the beast pains me. However, there is not enough biblical evidence support the rapture theory.

We need to study our bibles daily to avoid being deceived and we cannot believe something because the majority of pastors are preaching it. Hosea 4:6 says “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge”

Plea
Therefore this is a plea that whether or not you believe in the rapture, if something looks even similar to the mark of the beast, do not listen to your pastors. You should make an individual decision that you will not accept it, nor receive it.

The devil is an arch-deceiver, he knows that most Christians are not going to readily receive the mark of the beast. So I believe that he is going to try to deceive many people and Christians to receive it (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 13:13-14, Mark 13:22). The rapture theory is the perfect instrument to use to execute his deception.

I did not write this post to add to the arguments about the rapture theory. There have been more than enough arguments and bickering about this subject. If you believe in the rapture and others could not convince you that it will not happen, then I doubt that I can.
I am writing to plead that if you suspect that something is the mark of the beast or image to the beast, ask the Holy Spirit whether it is or not and make a decision not to receive it. The bible is infallible, but pastors are.

His MARK is Sunday The image is church and state coming together like it did in Rome and the Catholic, The US is going to come together , Church and state, And how did Roman church Kill, The image will pass Laws, To persecute AND kill GOD's People just like Rome did, A nation speak by it's laws, So this is how the image will speaks, GOD help US get ready for the Mark of the beast, and HIS mark is going to be Sunday, when the Sunday laws are passed, The Sabbath is GOD'S HOLY DAY , And THAT is the Seventh DAY, That is why GOD told Moses to Remember the Sabbath, To remember it, MEANS THAT WAS already GOD's HOLY DAY AND IT GO'S all the way BACK to CREATION.
The beast tells US WHAT HIS MARK IS,

 

[calibob]

Yep Tim Lahaye Sci-Fi (Left Behind), 100% Propaganda, dispensationalism false teachings in fear

Be that as it may, A distant thunder and thief in the night were better than lousy one that Nick Cage was in.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Be that as it may, A distant thunder and thief in the night were better than lousy one that Nick Cage was in.

The only problem with those movies (from what I recall, when I saw them back then) is that they incorrectly applied passages from the Olivet Discourse (namely Matt24:36-41 "one taken, the other left") to our Rapture, rather than what they are actually speaking of (per CONTEXT): His Second Coming to the earth point-in-time of the chronology.

(Jesus is not covering the Subject of "our Rapture" ANYWHERE in the Olivet Discourse... unlike those movies had depicted)

 

[Blain]

l used to believe in the rapture and now I do not after re-examining the bible and realizing that there is not enough biblical evidence.
I preferred to believe in the rapture theory because it is what is commonly preached. I liked the world ending that way. With me being raptured and not going through the tribulation. The theory suited me.
But I can no longer believe things which do not have enough evidence in the bible because they are appealing to me. Even if many pastors are preaching it and I have friends and family members and colleagues that believe in the rapture.

Through the tribulation
If you read the bible verses that are commonly used to prove the rapture theory, you will realize that they actually relate to the actual Second Coming of Jesus (especially 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).
I believe that we are going to go through the tribulation like the Israelites did during the time of the plagues in ancient Egypt. If you look at the plagues of ancient Egypt (Exodus 7-11), you will realize that they are similar to the plagues in the book of Revelation 16.The Israelites went through the plagues and God preserved them.
And I believe that the same is going to happen in future. If God can shield ancient Israel from the plagues, then He has the ability to shield us from the plagues. The faithful Christians will not be affected by the plagues; it is only those who receive the mark of the beast and worship his image according to Revelation 16. Therefore faithful Christians do not need to fear the plagues. God sustained Elijah during the 3 years of no rain (1 Kings 17) and He will be able to sustain us. However, there are Christians who will be beheaded because they refused to receive the mark and refused to worship the beast, although they will not be affected by God’s plagues (Revelation 20:4).

Mark of the beast
If the rapture theory is not true, then when the beast tells us to receive his mark, then many pastors will tell Christians that this mark could not be the mark described in the book of Revelation, because the rapture must first come. They will tell Christians that since the rapture has not come then mark could not be the mark of the beast.

This will result in thousands if not millions of Christians receiving the actual mark of the beast because they would be waiting for a rapture that will not happen. This is a scary thought!

Those who believe in the rapture, especially the pre-rapture are more in danger of receiving the mark of the beast than those who do not believe that the rapture theory is true.

Part of me wishes that the rapture theory was true, because the thought of many Christians being deceived into getting the mark of the beast pains me. However, there is not enough biblical evidence support the rapture theory.

We need to study our bibles daily to avoid being deceived and we cannot believe something because the majority of pastors are preaching it. Hosea 4:6 says “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge”

Plea
Therefore this is a plea that whether or not you believe in the rapture, if something looks even similar to the mark of the beast, do not listen to your pastors. You should make an individual decision that you will not accept it, nor receive it.

The devil is an arch-deceiver, he knows that most Christians are not going to readily receive the mark of the beast. So I believe that he is going to try to deceive many people and Christians to receive it (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 13:13-14, Mark 13:22). The rapture theory is the perfect instrument to use to execute his deception.

I did not write this post to add to the arguments about the rapture theory. There have been more than enough arguments and bickering about this subject. If you believe in the rapture and others could not convince you that it will not happen, then I doubt that I can.
I am writing to plead that if you suspect that something is the mark of the beast or image to the beast, ask the Holy Spirit whether it is or not and make a decision not to receive it. The bible is infallible, but pastors are.

It isn't the there is no rapture in scripture the event itself is poken of as is the word harpazon and it speaks of the catching away as well as other things the word rapture is not found in scripture because it is a man made word to describe the event

The debate is rather when it actually occurs.If you study the timing of the rapture along with the rest of events it really comes down to the perspective we hold because do not tend to understand exactly how much their own perspective and their own held beliefs can alter what the scriptures say.

I was curious about the stance in which every person who views the scriptures with their own perspective of each particular rapture theory the pre trib prewrath mid trib and post trib so I studied the scriptures purposely seeking eveidence for each stance and saw that I was correct if you look at it with as specific perspective you can find evidence for each stance the issue is that people hold so tightly to their views beliefs and perspective they cannot see what others see or will not accept that their understanding and beleifs might actually be wrong.

I hold to two of the four theories because they make most sense the pretrib and possibly the prewrath as there does seem to be a difference in his actual wrath and the first three years of the tribulation.
However for me at least if I am raptured I still intend to ask father after a time of being with him to serve others in the tribulation a time when his light and his love will be needed and lacking the most more than any other time in history

If I am wrong and we do have to go through the tribulation then so be it but trust me even if that is the case those who are his will never take that mark we were given instructions of what to expect in the bible and so we all will know when it is here and know not to take it, but God has always protected his own so lets say the pretrib rapture is wrong and we have to go through the tribulation what do you think? Will we suffer along with the rest of world in the same manner or will we be protected and empowered?

 

[Blain]

By all means, post scripture and your argument to disprove the claims made, waiting?

Truth do recal when I asked you to show your evidence of why dispensationalism is a lie? You neither gave any scripture for your claim nor showed any actual evidence of it you just kept saying for me to prove my claim when I asked you first and I refused until you did and even told I would if you would first and still refused.

I am willing to learn but I require evidence but if you refuse to show evidence or scripture for it then what does that say exactly?

 

[Truth7t7]

Be that as it may, A distant thunder and thief in the night were better than lousy one that Nick Cage was in.

A Thief In The Night (Russel Doughton) on a $68,000 budget

Doughton produced the film (The Blob), I watched that's a kid, rubber gooop that could go anywhere, I stuffed towels under the door for a week, scared to death

Sci-Fi propaganda, A thief in the night 1972, a distant thunder 1978, image of the beast 1981, the prodigal planet 1983

 

[calibob]

A Thief In The Night (Russel Doughton) on a $68,000 budget

Doughton produced the film (The Blob), I watched that's a kid, rubber gooop that could go anywhere, I stuffed towels under the door for a week, scared to death

Sci-Fi propaganda, A thief in the night 1972, a distant thunder 1978, image of the beast 1981, the prodigal planet 1983

The Blob with Steve Mac Queen? A Fright Night standard. I never saw or heard of the last two. Hal Lindsey (Late Great Planet Earth) was a regular speaker where I worked in 81.

 

[Truth7t7]

Truth do recal when I asked you to show your evidence of why dispensationalism is a lie? You neither gave any scripture for your claim nor showed any actual evidence of it you just kept saying for me to prove my claim when I asked you first and I refused until you did and even told I would if you would first and still refused.

I am willing to learn but I require evidence but if you refuse to show evidence or scripture for it then what does that say exactly?

Dispensationalism's Pre-Trib Rapture Is A Lie!

The main scripture used by supporters of this teaching is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming)(Last Day) resurrection

Is a resurrection of the believer seen below in 1 Thess 4:15-17 100% yes

Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught, 100% yes

Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught 100% yes

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[bluto]

Btw

I have never seen, in 38 years of study/ debate, anyone successfully defend a postrib rapture.
It is that far fetched

Really, that's because you have never met me. And after reading all your comments I have the following question for you? How is it you fit through doorways with an ego like yours?

Here's what I'm going to do, I'm going to raise four "Biblical" points and see how you address them? Btw, there are other points but for now let's see how you deall with the following.

I'm going to start at Matthew 24 with the person who started the whole thing, Jesus Christ. His disciples ask Him at Matthew 24:3 the following question? "And He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sigh of Your coming, and the end of the age/world."

If you read the verses that follow, (which are all things happening today and even getting worse) you come to Matthew 24:15. "Therefore (why is it there for?) when you see the Abomination of Desolation which was splem of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, (let the reader understand). Or, comprehend what is meant by these words I am telling you.

Jesus then goes on to explain what will happen to those during this tribulation time, verses 16-28. Verse 29, "But immediately the tribulation of those days etc. What happens? Verses 30-31, who appears in the clouds and what happens? Who's gathered from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other." When does the pretrib rapture occur?

Point #2. 2 Thessolonians 1. The Apostle Paul says at verse 4, "therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for you perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure." Vs5, "This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering."

Now watch what Paul says next. Vs6, "For after allit is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you. Vs7, and to give RELIEF/REST (WHEN) the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire." Notice now how the Apostle Paul backs up what Jesus stated at Matthew 24:15 here at 2 Thesalonians 2:1-3. Vs3, "Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS IS REVEALED, the son of destruction."

Point #3 is a short point. Hebrews 9:28, "so Christ also, having been offered ONCE to bear the sins of many, shall APPEAR A SECOND time for salvation or deliverance without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him." Where does the pretrib rapture fit in here?

Point #4. This is from 1 John 2, chapter two. Vs16-17. Please notice at vs16 the Apostle John mentions the world, as he does at verse 17 where he says, "the world is passing away." At vs18 John says, "Children, it is the last hour, and just as you heard antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen, from this we know that it is the last hour."

From this we see that somebody taught them that "antichrist" singular is coming. Even now there are many antichrist so here's my question? From the context John is "expecting" the antichrist and letting the other Christians know to look out for him. If the pretrib rapture is true then why would John tell us to look out for the antichrist if you guys are not going to be here? None of this is hard to understand if you just follow the order of the events. I was a pretribber myself for many years until I came to my senses and researched the the thing. I'm talking about close to 55 years ago. I attended way back then the Calvary Chapel Church even to this day. Chuck Smith was the pastor and he taught the pretrib rapture.

We did not fight about it but was joyful that Jesus Christ was going to return for His church. If you want to hold to that view, fine. But on the other hand we should respect those who have a different view. Nobody, in their right mind wants to be around when the antichrist appears but we should be look out for him as John said instead of pinning your hopes on disappearing and eating the Lamb's supper while the whole world goes to hell in a handbasket. Btw, that's something else that never made sense to me.

In God the Son,
bluto

 

[calibob]

Well fellas @Truth7t7 @Blain I do remember trying to figuring it out and it seemed to me that mid trib. was the most likely and pre trib. the least. So we have a 3 way stalemate now. I've heard and read them all but like ThD. Martin, I'll admit that I don't know. Jesus said; " King James Bible Mark 13:32 "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." So if even Jesus didn't know what makes us think that we're so smart? I even used King James for you guys so NIV or BSB wouldn't be an issue.

 

[Magenta]

Doughton produced the film (The Blob), I watched that's a kid, rubber gooop that could go anywhere, I stuffed towels under the door for a week, scared to death

I was allowed to see The Blob as a child also, against the better judgment of my mother

I had nightmares as a result

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

calibob said: Be that as it may, A distant thunder and thief in the night were better than lousy one that Nick Cage was in.

The only problem with those movies (from what I recall, when I saw them back then) is that they incorrectly applied passages from the Olivet Discourse (namely Matt24:36-41 "one taken, the other left") to our Rapture, rather than what they are actually speaking of (per CONTEXT): His Second Coming to the earth point-in-time of the chronology.
(Jesus is not covering the Subject of "our Rapture" ANYWHERE in the Olivet Discourse... unlike those movies had depicted)

Another thing I thought of, regarding that first movie ("A Thief in the Night"),... I think I recall that the lyrics of the theme song went like this:
"...♭ He shall come like a thief in the night. ♭" (by this, the movie meant, at the rapture). The problem with that is, that they neglected to distinguish between the following two phrases (referring to distinct things):

--"the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief IN THE NIGHT"

(^ that refers to the time-period consisting of "judgments" unfolding upon the earth over the course of some TIME, i.e. the time-period leading UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom [aka "the age [singular] to come," aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER," aka "the kingdom OF THE heavenS [on the earth!]," etc]); and then distinctly the phrase...


--"Behold, I come as a thief. [period]"

( ^ NO "IN THE NIGHT" phrase is added when referring to HIS PERSONAL "RETURN" to the earth, at the Rev19 / 16:14-16 point in the chronology [i.e. at the Armageddon point in time, Rev16:14-16])


These two distinct phrases are commonly (and incorrectly) CONFLATED as though they refer to one-and-the-same, singular item (at one point in time). You'll commonly hear (as in these lyrics) ppl incorrectly saying "HE will come like a thief IN THE NIGHT"... but Scripture does not say this. (May the readers see again these verses, above ^ , for what these two phrases each actually DO say... and try to make a habit of not combining these distinct phrases into one, as though they are saying the same thing. They are not. )

 

[calibob]

I was allowed to see The Blob as a child also, against the better judgment of my mother

I had nightmares as a result

They never bothered me but we used to go to the drive in almost every Saturday night. My father would just drink beer and make fun of monster movies and point out the obviously fake seens. All I cared about was soda, hot dogs and popcorn.

 

[calibob]

lets get back on track. I'll share a few theories I've heard through the years. The mark on the had will be a credit or ATM card and the mark on the head will be a pin number. It will be a chip like they use for pets. An old one was, a UPC code like they use in supermarket scanners, social security number. A new federal Id, (like they're planning next year) and some more I just can't remember.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Which rapture theory are you talking about? I don't believe in pre trib rapture nor post trib. either. I've been distracted however because some preachers, that I've heard lecture about it, seemed to have made it their #1 topic so let's see what Jesus said: Matthew 24- 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ a spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

Good day, calibob!

Matthew 24:15 is in reference to the nation Israel during the middle part of the seven year period and leading up to the end of the age. In support of this, the warning is to Israel to flee out into the wilderness is when they see the abomination in the holy place, which is the room within the temple just outside the Holy of Holies. In addition, the scripture states the Lord saying for them to pray that when they flee, to pray that it will not take place on the Sabbath, which would also be in reference to Israel who observe the Sabbath under the law. This fleeing that takes place is synonymous with 'the woman' of Revelation 12:6, 14 when she flees out into the wilderness to that place where she is cared for by God for 1260 days, i.e. that last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period. Therefore, this information is regarding the nation Israel at the time when that antichrist/beast will cause the sacrifices and offerings to cease and will set up that idolatrous image in the holy place within the temple and will proclaim himself to be God.

* So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel

Daniel 9:27 - And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation, until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him.

* then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Judea is the district which has many city, with Jerusalem being one of them. Therefore, the warning for those in Judea to flee to the mountains is once again in reference to Israel.

* Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath

The Lord's warning to pray that the time of their fleeing does not take place on the Sabbath, would also have Israel in view

Not only will Israel be going through her troubles, but the entire world will be exposed to God's wrath during that time namely the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which will a time of great tribulation which the world has never experienced. It is paramount that we pay attention to the details of scripture in order to come to a right conclusion. During that seven year period those who will be on the earth will be the nation Israel, the great tribulation saints, the 144,000 and those rejecting Christ.

Prior to when the antichrist establishes his covenant, which initiates that last seven years, the church will have been removed and that because that time period is the time of God's wrath which the church is not appointed to suffer:

* They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

* For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

* Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!

* Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

When we believed in Christ, we were credited with righteousness and reconciled to God. We are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath upon this earth, which will take place during that last seven years via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Nor are believers subject to God's final judgment at the great white throne judgment where all thrown into the lake of fire. To be clear, the believer in Christ is not subject to any of God's wrath, because Jesus already took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore, the wrath of God no longer rests upon those who believe in His Son.

I've heard Hal

Lindsey lecture and he sold alot of books about it too. Chuck Smith predicted it would occur in 1987 as I recall but Dr. Walter Martin (the original 'Bible answerman') was the most well educated Theological Professor (I think he had a eidetic memory) that I've ever met admitted something Professors rarely ever say. "I don't know." and he urged us to drop the subject because it leads to bickering and division which is not of God. He said just do what we're supposed to be doing. Spreading the Good News of Salvation and the end won't come until everybody, everywhere hears the simple gospel. "Jesus Saves." Then the class was dismissed.

I disagree that we should "drop the subject" and that because Jesus tells us to be ready and watching for His appearing to gather us. Paul, after revealing the information in I Thess.4:13-18 in regards to the living being changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air said, "Therefore, comfort each other with these words." Well, it would be no comfort if believers were first to go through God's wrath and then be gathered afterwards. Paul, in writing to Titus, called the Lord's appearing to gather His church 'the blessed hope." Consequently, if the church were to first go through the time of God's wrath, then it would be no blessed hope. Regarding His promise, the Lord said the following:

"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God a ; believe also in me. 2My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going.”

In verse 1, the Lord says to those who are living at the time when He returns "Do not let your hearts be troubled." Well, if believers were to go through the time of God's wrath, our hearts would certainly be troubled because we would be exposed to all of God's wrath. Then the Lord says that He went to prepare places for us in the Father's house (heaven) and that He was going to come back to get us so that He can take us to those places that He prepared for us in the Father's house, so that we can be with him.

 

[Ahwatukee]

His MARK is Sunday The image is church and state coming together like it did in Rome and the Catholic, The US is going to come together , Church and state, And how did Roman church Kill, The image will pass Laws, To persecute AND kill GOD's People just like Rome did, A nation speak by it's laws, So this is how the image will speaks, GOD help US get ready for the Mark of the beast, and HIS mark is going to be Sunday, when the Sunday laws are passed, The Sabbath is GOD'S HOLY DAY , And THAT is the Seventh DAY, That is why GOD told Moses to Remember the Sabbath, To remember it, MEANS THAT WAS already GOD's HOLY DAY AND IT GO'S all the way BACK to CREATION.
The beast tells US WHAT HIS MARK IS, View attachment 222816 View attachment 222816

The problem is that, the Sabbath was not transferred. The scripture is speaking about Israel during that time who will continue to reject Jesus as their Messiah and consider themselves as still under the Law, the keeping of the Sabbath being a requirement of the Law.

The Mark of the beast, will be a literal mark which as the scripture states, will go in/on the right hand or the forehead and that without it no one will be able to buy or sell. To put that into perspective for today, the world is buying and selling i.e. electronic crediting and debiting of their bank accounts via the swiping of their debit or credit cards.

Sweden is way ahead of us in regards to electronic crediting and debiting, as they are pretty much completely cashless, utilizing bank cards. However, for some time now the people have been in the process of receiving an RFID chip under the skin of their hands between the thumb and index finger. Now, instead of having their cards swiped, they are having their hands scanned to make purchases. This supports the mark of the beast as a literal mark, just as scripture proclaims. The information regarding the mark should not be interpreted as an allegory or symbolism. The fact is, that a literal interpretation of the mark is supported because we can already see the technology for the mark and its use. By the time the antichrist/beast is revealed, it will be ready to go, because people will already be using that technology.

"

 

[calibob]

I've poured through all of the scriptures' you quoted independently too. That's why I'm a mid triber when most of my freinds and associates favored pre trib. The circles that I associated with were mostly wanna be scholars and theologians and took every opportunity to debate over nearly everything. Rapture theories tend to be one of the topics that would get them quarreling enough to turn me away from them.

There were 3 different schools of thought and the would divide into 3 different groups opposing each other. It went on for a couple years. Dr. Martin said what he said to put an end to it. I'm sure that he had a pretty good idea himself but he remained tight lipped about it. Besides he couldn't openly contradict Hal Lindsey he was a huge draw for the Church and they collected a lot of offerings when he came around. So I'll leave a couple of scriptures that got me to stop.

2 Tim. 2:23 But reject foolish and ignorant speculation, for you know that it breeds quarreling. 24And a servant of the Lord must not be quarrelsome, but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, and forbearing. 25 He must gently reprove those who oppose him, in the hope that God may grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth 2 tim 2

1 Tim 1:3 As I urged you on my departure to Macedonia, you should stay on at Ephesus to instruct certain men not to teach false doctrines 4or devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculation rather than the stewardship of God’s work, which is by faith. 5The goal of our instruction is the love that comes from a pure heart, a clear conscience, and a sincere faith.…
Berean Study Bible

1 Tim 6:3 If anyone teaches another doctrine and disagrees with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and with godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. Instead, he has an unhealthy interest in controversies and semantics, out of which come envy, strife, abusive talk, evil suspicions, 5and constant friction between men of depraved mind who are devoid of the truth. These men regard godliness as a means of gain.…
Berean Study Bible

Do whatever you want but I choose to keep it short and sweet and get out before my blood pressure redlines. That's when I get angry and sin.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Really, that's because you have never met me. And after reading all your comments I have the following question for you? How is it you fit through doorways with an ego like yours?

From this we see that somebody taught them that "antichrist" singular is coming. Even now there are many antichrist so here's my question? From the context John is "expecting" the antichrist and letting the other Christians know to look out for him. If the pretrib rapture is true then why would John tell us to look out for the antichrist if you guys are not going to be here? None of this is hard to understand if you just follow the order of the events. I was a pretribber myself for many years until I came to my senses and researched the the thing. I'm talking about close to 55 years ago. I attended way back then the Calvary Chapel Church even to this day. Chuck Smith was the pastor and he taught the pretrib rapture.

"Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour."

Hi bluto!

In 1 John 2:18, John is not stating that believers will see the antichrist, but that he is coming (into the world). He's simply stating that the antichrist is coming and which is still future. Now where in the scripture does it say for us to watch out for him, only that we can tell that it is the last time because there are many types of antichrists. John goes on to say that, anyone who does not believe that Jesus is the Messiah is an antichrist. The scripture does not say anywhere that believers should be expecting him, but he is coming into the world. That does not negate the promise of the Lord's coming to get His church prior to the person of the antichrist's revealing.

We did not fight about it but was joyful that Jesus Christ was going to return for His church. If you want to hold to that view, fine. But on the other hand we should respect those who have a different view. Nobody, in their right mind wants to be around when the antichrist appears but we should be look out for him as John said instead of pinning your hopes on disappearing and eating the Lamb's supper while the whole world goes to hell in a handbasket. Btw, that's something else that never made sense to me.


In God the Son,
bluto

We should indeed be looking for the Lord's appearing to gather us prior to God's wrath, which is the time period in which the antichrist/beast will be revealed. And since it is during the time of God's wrath, then believers cannot be here because we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath upon this earth which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses will bring.

Those who are faithfully watching and ready will be gathered to meet the Lord in the air. Those who are not believing at the time when the Lord appears, that time period of God's wrath will close on them like a trap, for it will come upon all those who dwell upon the face of the whole earth.

Those who teach that the church is going to go through God's wrath, are putting believers in the same punishment as the wicked. In addition, they are not truly believing that Jesus took upon himself the wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. That being the case, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer and therefore cannot and will not go through the time when God's wrath when it is poured out upon the earth. It is a legal precedent, that since the wrath that the believer deserves has already been satisfied by Christ, then those who believe in Him will not be subject to it and therefore must be removed according to His promise.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I've poured through all of the scriptures' you quoted independently too. That's why I'm a mid triber when most of my freinds and associates favored pre trib. The circles that I associated with were mostly wanna be scholars and theologians and took every opportunity to debate over nearly everything. Rapture theories tend to be one of the topics that would get them quarreling enough to turn me away from them.

First of all, the gathering of the church is not a theory. We can read of the event in John 14:1-3, I Thess.4:13-18 and I Cor.15:50-53 & Rev.3:10. Therefore, it is not a theory and it should not be referred to as such. What is in question is the timing of this event, i.e. taking place prior to God's wrath being poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, in the middle of God's wrath or after the completion of God's wrath. Regarding this, the wall of scripture that separates believers from being on the earth during the time of God's wrath is that Jesus already satisfied God's wrath on behalf of every believer. Therefore, since it has been satisfied, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer, but on those who do not have Christ:

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”

As the scripture states, believers have eternal life. And those who reject Christ, God's wrath remains on them. Therefore, when the Lord appears to gather His church, those who have continued to reject Him will be caught in that time period of God's wrath. The Lord is not going to have His bride beat up first and then come and get her afterwards.

There will be a group of who will become believers after the church has been gathered which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language, who will also be caught in this time period of wrath, with many of them being killed because of their testimony of Christ and the world of God, who will not worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark. These are those who will come out of the great tribulation period. These are the saints with whom the beast will wage war against and conquer during that last 3 1/2 years. During God's time of wrath, the church will have been judged in heaven at the Bema Seat of Christ and will have attended the wedding of the Lamb. After the 7th bowl been poured out, which competes God's wrath. Then the Lord will return to the earth with His bride who will be following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing their white linen, white and clean which they will have received at the wedding of the Lamb.

"The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses (down to the earth). And from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and He will rule them with an iron scepter. He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty."

2 Tim. 2:23

But reject foolish and ignorant speculation, for you know that it breeds quarreling. 24And a servant of the Lord must not be quarrelsome, but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, and forbearing. 25 He must gently reprove those who oppose him, in the hope that God may grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth 2 tim 2

We are also told to 'contend for the faith' and that:

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the servant of God a may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Regarding the Lord's appearing and our being gathered to Him, We are told to comfort one another with those words. We are also told to watch for the blessed hope, the appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. Consequently, if we were to go through the same wrath as the wicked, then there would be no comfort, nor would it be a blessed hope.

Many come to the conclusion of mid-or post-trib because they don't understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath upon this earth. If they did, they would not interpret the church as being here during that time. Also, if they understood the legal precedent that Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath that all believers deserve, then they would not have us going through God's wrath, because they would conclude that it has already been satisfied.