PREVENIENT GRACE: AN ARMINIAN ERROR

[Scribe]

For the normative appropriation of salvation i believe we need to look at Paul's episties ..We know today as Jesus told us would be the case when the Holy Spirit would be given .
8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12¶I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

Great passage of scripture to give in this context.
Today we require a revelation, by the Spirit to make these things known to us and to use us to reprove the world, or to be that witness empowered by the Spirit and the words of the Spirit that bring the world to their knees as a result of hearing this holy message from a holy God.
We also need to be convinced of sin, righteousness and judgment to come and listen to that voice and reject all the others. There is much said in the name of religion that is not from the Spirit and not what the Spirit is concerned with. We would do well to measure our ministry by this passage that you have posted.

 

[throughfaith]

Great passage of scripture to give in this context.
Today we require a revelation, by the Spirit to make these things known to us and to use us to reprove the world, or to be that witness empowered by the Spirit and the words of the Spirit that bring the world to their knees as a result of hearing this holy message from a holy God.
We also need to be convinced of sin, righteousness and judgment to come and listen to that voice and reject all the others. There is much said in the name of religion that is not from the Spirit and not what the Spirit is concerned with. We would do well to measure our ministry by this passage that you have posted.

The Key part about the ' sin ' in that verse is its specific not general sins

9Of sin, because they believe not on me;

 

[Scribe]

The Key part about the ' sin ' in that verse is its specific not general sins

9Of sin, because they believe not on me;

All sin at it's root is a form of unbelief. If we really believed what the Bible said will happen to drunkards we would not justify intoxication. It shows we don't believe. If we really believed that fornicators will not inherit the kingdom of God we will not sleep with our girl friend or move in with her because "we plan to get married". Those that do that are in unbelief.

 

[throughfaith]

All sin at it's root is a form of unbelief. If we really believed what the Bible said will happen to drunkards we would not justify intoxication. It shows we don't believe. If we really believed that fornicators will not inherit the kingdom of God we will not sleep with our girl friend or move in with her because "we plan to get married". Those that do that are in unbelief.

There's poor teaching across the board in churches . I don't think anyone is teaching any believer to do these things . The bible certainly is not . Good teaching is crucial of course . Each believer is responsible however with what he does with truth . Many resort to more laws , more rules, harder preaching on sin and judgement to straighten out the congregation. leaning so heavily on the emphasis of " how do we get the church to behave " its missed the entire point . Grace teaches not law .
Titus 2

11¶For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

We should understand the truth and let the truth stand . How people treat the truth is on them.

legalism is the result of losing sight of grace ..

 

[throughfaith]

All sin at it's root is a form of unbelief. If we really believed what the Bible said will happen to drunkards we would not justify intoxication. It shows we don't believe. If we really believed that fornicators will not inherit the kingdom of God we will not sleep with our girl friend or move in with her because "we plan to get married". Those that do that are in unbelief.

Sin is transgression of the law .
The sin of not Believing on Jesus is catastrophic for every one because its the only access to be glorified when he returns. You can see from this point why the Holy spirit is being specific about this :

9Of sin, because they believe not on me;
People confuse this to mean all sins . Ultimately the one thing that will make the difference on judgement day will be ,are you in him or not .

 

[Scribe]

There's poor teaching across the board in churches . I don't think anyone is teaching any believer to do these things . The bible certainly is not . Good teaching is crucial of course . Each believer is responsible however with what he does with truth . Many resort to more laws , more rules, harder preaching on sin and judgement to straighten out the congregation. leaning so heavily on the emphasis of " how do we get the church to behave " its missed the entire point . Grace teaches not law .
Titus 2

11¶For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

We should understand the truth and let the truth stand . How people treat the truth is on them.

legalism is the result of losing sight of grace ..

Paul gave us a good chapter to preach on how to overcome the flesh in Rom 6. Our identifying with Christ death as death to our sins includes seeing sin as worthy of death. This hatred for sin is necessary and too many give sin quarter. Multitudes of millions have fallen into the snare of thinking "it is just a little sin" "it doesn't mean I am not saved" and they are enslaved and it brings forth death and they will wake up in hell with eternal regret because they would not crucify the flesh with it's affections and lusts. This is not legalism this is freedom. The Liberty that is ours in Christ is too precious for us to let any sin remain unmortified.

 

[throughfaith]

Paul gave us a good chapter to preach on how to overcome the flesh in Rom 6. Our identifying with Christ death as death to our sins includes seeing sin as worthy of death. This hatred for sin is necessary and too many give sin quarter. Multitudes of millions have fallen into the snare of thinking "it is just a little sin" "it doesn't mean I am not saved" and they are enslaved and it brings forth death and they will wake up in hell with eternal regret because they would not crucify the flesh with it's affections and lusts. This is not legalism this is freedom. The Liberty that is ours in Christ is too precious for us to let any sin remain unmortified.

Yes sin brings death . Always has . Death physically, death to marriage, death to friendships, death to spreads to everything. However and some miss this . We are sealed UNTIL when ? Eph 4.30 , Eph 1 ,12-14 And what are we predestinated to ? Rom 8.23 / 29-30 And where are we currently seated spiritually ? Eph 2.6

 

[throughfaith]

Paul gave us a good chapter to preach on how to overcome the flesh in Rom 6. Our identifying with Christ death as death to our sins includes seeing sin as worthy of death. This hatred for sin is necessary and too many give sin quarter. Multitudes of millions have fallen into the snare of thinking "it is just a little sin" "it doesn't mean I am not saved" and they are enslaved and it brings forth death and they will wake up in hell with eternal regret because they would not crucify the flesh with it's affections and lusts. This is not legalism this is freedom. The Liberty that is ours in Christ is too precious for us to let any sin remain unmortified.

Multitudes of millions ? Yet no verse says this ? I could not get through the week if I thought salvation could be lost .

 

[throughfaith]

Paul gave us a good chapter to preach on how to overcome the flesh in Rom 6. Our identifying with Christ death as death to our sins includes seeing sin as worthy of death. This hatred for sin is necessary and too many give sin quarter. Multitudes of millions have fallen into the snare of thinking "it is just a little sin" "it doesn't mean I am not saved" and they are enslaved and it brings forth death and they will wake up in hell with eternal regret because they would not crucify the flesh with it's affections and lusts. This is not legalism this is freedom. The Liberty that is ours in Christ is too precious for us to let any sin remain unmortified.

35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37¶Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38For I am persuaded, that neither , nor death nor life , nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present , nor things to come ,

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[BenjaminN]

holding the truth in unrighteousness is key there . Faith is not THE gift in Eph 2 according to the context of ephesians chapters 1 and chapters 2 And the sentence structure as even explained by John Calvin .

Brother, should we speaking in the English language, if we claimed to have studied and rejected a man's teachings, not refrain from bearing false testimony to that dead man's life, who spoke in the French language, John Calvin who wonderfully, with regards to the subject of faith, attributed his faith solely as one of the gifts of God, as did the Apostle Paul when he spoke in the Greek language:

“[Paul] exhorts the Ephesians to remember (Ephesians 2) that they were saved by grace, not by themselves nor by their own works.... Faith, moreover, precedes justification, but in such a sense, that in respect of God, it follows. What they [Roman Catholics] say of faith might perhaps hold true, were faith itself, which puts us in possession of righteousness, our own. But seeing that it too is the free gift of God, the exception which they introduce is superfluous. Scripture, indeed, removes all doubt on another ground, when it opposes faith to works, to prevent its being classed among merits. Faith brings nothing of our own to God, but receives what God spontaneously offers us. Hence it is that faith, however imperfect, nevertheless possesses a perfect righteousness, because it has respect to nothing but the gratuitous goodness of God.” (John Calvin Acts of the Council of Trent With its Antidote, in The Comprehensive John Calvin Collection (Ages Digital Library, 1998), 110) .


Ephesians 2 (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


Romans 12 (KJV)

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.


Which measure of faith would be varying in measure from man to man, from a cup empty of any gift of faith by God's grace, to a cup nearly filled to the top - with the gift of faith by God's grace.

 

[BenjaminN]

" You will be witnesses to those Jews in Jerusalem , in all judea and Samaria and to the end of the earth.

Acts 1 (KJV)

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


There were not any Jews/Judah at the uttermost part of the earth, however Gentiles/Ephraim were and still are, at the uttermost part of the earth.

Christ Yeshua's message to his twelve apostles, did not contradict his later revelation to the apostle Paul, to go to the Gentiles, even Peter in Acts 15:7, also mentioned that long ago, as Paul he was elected to be sent to the Gentiles, by Christ Yeshua.


Acts 15 (KJV)

7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Christ Yeshua came to gather ALL the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, among the Jews/Judah and Gentiles/Ephraim:

Skip to 1h13m ( https://bit.ly/GentilesEphraimJewsJudahAt1h13m )


Matthew 10 (KJV)

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


Matthew 15 (KJV)

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


Acts 1 (KJV)

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

 

[throughfaith]

Brother, should we speaking in the English language, if we claimed to have studied and rejected a man's teachings, not refrain from bearing false testimony to that dead man's life, who spoke in the French language, John Calvin who wonderfully, with regards to the subject of faith, attributed his faith solely as one of the gifts of God, as did the Apostle Paul when he spoke in the Greek language:

“[Paul] exhorts the Ephesians to remember (Ephesians 2) that they were saved by grace, not by themselves nor by their own works.... Faith, moreover, precedes justification, but in such a sense, that in respect of God, it follows. What they [Roman Catholics] say of faith might perhaps hold true, were faith itself, which puts us in possession of righteousness, our own. But seeing that it too is the free gift of God, the exception which they introduce is superfluous. Scripture, indeed, removes all doubt on another ground, when it opposes faith to works, to prevent its being classed among merits. Faith brings nothing of our own to God, but receives what God spontaneously offers us. Hence it is that faith, however imperfect, nevertheless possesses a perfect righteousness, because it has respect to nothing but the gratuitous goodness of God.” (John Calvin Acts of the Council of Trent With its Antidote, in The Comprehensive John Calvin Collection (Ages Digital Library, 1998), 110) .


Ephesians 2 (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


Romans 12 (KJV)

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.


Which measure of faith would be varying in measure from man to man, from a cup empty of any gift of faith by God's grace, to a cup nearly filled to the top - with the gift of faith by God's grace.

7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works , lest any man should boast.

10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The context in most of Paul's letters Grace v works . Law v Grace. Its never Faith v Grace or Faith = works .
The law was to drive people to Faith .
So it makes absolutely no sense to call Faith the gift . Why would Jesus marvel at their unbelief if faith is a gift in that sense ? He would just assume " oh it must be because they have not been gifted it " and moved on with no comment. Why get upset over what they can't do Right ? Why command every one in the whole world to repent it they cannot?

 

[BenjaminN]

Great passage of scripture to give in this context.
Today we require a revelation, by the Spirit to make these things known to us and to use us to reprove the world, or to be that witness empowered by the Spirit and the words of the Spirit that bring the world to their knees as a result of hearing this holy message from a holy God.
We also need to be convinced of sin, righteousness and judgment to come and listen to that voice and reject all the others. There is much said in the name of religion that is not from the Spirit and not what the Spirit is concerned with. We would do well to measure our ministry by this passage that you have posted.

We should prob throw in these verses also.
1 cor 12
4¶Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12¶For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

1 Corinthians 12 (KJV)

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit;

 

[throughfaith]

1 Corinthians 12 (KJV)

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit;

Wow !! This is quite alarming how you ignore the context of 1 cor 12 .
1¶Now concerning SPIRITURAL GIFTS , brethren, I would not have you ignorant

3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man SPEAKING BY the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

4¶Now there are DIVERSITIES of gifts, but the same Spirit.

6And there are diversities of OPERATIONS, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7But the MANIFESTATION of the Spirit is given to EVERY MAN to profit WITHAL .

8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

Its clearly talking about gifts given AFTER conversion.

28And God hath set some IN THE CHURCH , first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

31But COVET earnestly the BEST GIFTS : and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

 

[throughfaith]

1 Corinthians 12 (KJV)

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit;

The ' Faith 'here just like the ' Spirit of wisdom and 'word of knowledge are given after regeneration not before..As in someone is given ' extra ' Faith to do a task or to encourage and edify the church.
This is really concerning how your missing these basic points ?

 

[throughfaith]

1 Corinthians 12 (KJV)

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit;

Acts 13.
46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing YE PUT IT FROM YOU , and JUDGE YOUR SELF'S unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

48¶And when the Gentiles HEARD THIS , THEY WERE GLAD , and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

AS MANY AS DISPOSED THEMSELVES TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED .
They decided themselves . Appointed themselves. Disposed themselves to believe .

Check the context at the start of the chapter .
5And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister.
OK so they hear the word of God .

16¶Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.

26¶Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

42¶And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

43Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

44¶And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Notice nothing mystical or gnostic / hindu going on . They preach the quick and powerful word of God to them. They want to hear the message again. They hear it and decide its for them and believe.

 

[BenjaminN]

I meant that ' spiritual gifts ' are specific gifts given after regeneration.

You say your believe in Jesus did not come from God? I'm shocked, you believe (not from God), that your believes (not from God), can save your self? If not from God, where did your so-called believe come from, from yourself? The religion of self has Satanistic roots, and it's called humanism, not Christianity - wrong forum my fellow man, unless you had the God-given-faith from the start and is converting to the God-given-faith called Christianity?

Why would you need the gift of your measure of faith from God, if you already have mountains of your own believes (not from God - according to you), that you believe (not from God you say) can save you?

According to you, the spiritual gift of faith, is only given, after your so-called "self-believe-established-regeneration"; as opposed to the well established reformed position, of faith-by-grace-not-your-own-working-gift-of-God-regeneration-of-Salvation?


1 Corinthians 12 (KJV)

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;


Romans 12 (KJV)

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.


Ephesians 2 (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[BenjaminN]

The ' Faith 'here just like the ' Spirit of wisdom and 'word of knowledge are given after regeneration not before..As in someone is given ' extra ' Faith to do a task or to encourage and edify the church.
This is really concerning how your missing these basic points ?

Your name is written (or not), in the book of life before the foundation of the world. God writes it there, and he deals you your measure of faith as a gift of salvation by grace, along with many more spiritual gifts of salvation by grace (discernment, healing, speaking in tongues, prophecy, acts of mercy, etc.) that accompany your salvation.

Faith is a gift from God, yours if your name was written before the foundation of the world, in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain. It is determined by God, whether you name is written in the book of life, as he is in control of your salvation, not yourself. Faith is not a reward after you, out of your own believes. This kind of believe in Christ Yeshua is not given by God you say, but in a self-attained humanist way, not the Christian way of all grace of salvation from God. This is a false faith-not-from-God system you are promoting.


Revelation 20 (KJV)

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 13 (KJV)

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[BenjaminN]

Acts 13.
46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing YE PUT IT FROM YOU , and JUDGE YOUR SELF'S unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

48¶And when the Gentiles HEARD THIS , THEY WERE GLAD , and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

AS MANY AS DISPOSED THEMSELVES TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED .
They decided themselves . Appointed themselves. Disposed themselves to believe .

Check the context at the start of the chapter .
5And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister.
OK so they hear the word of God .

16¶Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.

26¶Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

42¶And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

43Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

44¶And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Notice nothing mystical or gnostic / hindu going on . They preach the quick and powerful word of God to them. They want to hear the message again. They hear it and decide its for them and believe.

They, they, they - where is God my fellow man - you are promoting humanism, not Christianity - wrong forum, unless you were granted the God-given-faith-of-salvation before the foundation of the world - in which case you would have no problem in professing, and giving Glory to God, that our faith is the Gift of God - and not something else that comes from a different source than God - there is only one different source than God, and that is from the self, which is not from God, which is from the evil one.

 

[throughfaith]

Your name is written (or not), in the book of life before the foundation of the world. God writes it there, and he deals you your measure of faith as a gift of salvation by grace, along with many more spiritual gifts of salvation by grace (discernment, healing, speaking in tongues, prophecy, acts of mercy, etc.) that accompany your salvation.

Faith is a gift from God, yours if your name was written before the foundation of the world, in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain. It is determined by God, whether you name is written in the book of life, as he is in control of your salvation, not yourself. Faith is not a reward after you, out of your own believes. This kind of believe in Christ Yeshua is not given by God you say, but in a self-attained humanist way, not the Christian way of all grace of salvation from God. This is a false faith-not-from-God system you are promoting.


Revelation 20 (KJV)

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 13 (KJV)

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

From the foundation.