PREVENIENT GRACE: AN ARMINIAN ERROR

[BenjaminN]

While I agree that salvation is mongergistic in effort, I do not deny the human ability to by force of will to resist and even reject grace.

If you resist or reject, it means you never received the gift of salvation by grace through faith.


Ephesians 2 (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

 

[throughfaith]

Romans 11 (ESV)

5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day."

Israel .

 

[Nehemiah6]

Romans 11 (ESV)

5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day."

You have take a passage OUT OF CONTEXT to promote your unbiblical ideas. So who is this portion speaking about? The believing remnant of ISRAEL, called "the elect".

Let's see how this chapter begins in order to confirm that you are misapplying Scripture: I say then, Hath God cast away his people [ISRAEL]? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Paul is dealing with the general unbelief of the Jews and yet there is a small believing remnant of Israel. Why did God harden the hearts of those who did not believe? Because to begin with THEY WOULD NOT BELIEVE. See Matthew 13.

 

[BenjaminN]

Israel .

Romans 11:5-8: Is Israel not part of so that "all men", "everyone" can be saved? Yet God can close or open eyes, and bestows salvation on whom he chose, when he chose, after their partial hardening has been lifted, and the fulness of the Gentiles have come in, so that in this way ALL ISRAEL, chosen by God, can be saved.

 

[Corban]

Yes, I read it. However I don't think it has to be any more than recognizing he is being confronted by a Divine manifestation and trying to figure it out. The first "Lord" here could be respect and fear. The revelation coming after the answer was given. I don't think you can be conclusive (or even convincing) that his initial "Lord" was in full understanding that it was Jesus until Jesus told him.

But you might be correct. His kicking against the goad was a reference to an inner suspicion he had that he was fighting against God. It probably started when he heard the excellent preaching by Stephen, from that day on he was probably going through and internal war.
Maybe that is what Romans 7 was about more than anything else.

So he might have asked who he was, calling him Lord in the generic sense, but having an inward suspicion it was Jesus at the same time. I will grant that much.

As to the goads being a method for pushing them into a bath.

I don't see any reason to think that Jesus was referring to an OX bath or that Luke had it mind when he recorded this. Seems that the agricultural custom of the time, (and probably still in certain areas of that part of the world today) is that of goading them with a sharp stick to make them go in the direction you want them to go on a daily basis or maybe in training.

That if they kicked against it, it would just hurt more. I also read that there is something in the construction of some of the harnesses for plowing that would poke them if they tried to back up and kicking against them would hurt even worse. Both are probably true and the latter might be what was understood by the readers of the time. More research into the custom of the time should yield the most probable answer but I doubt that a bath would be the main idea and unless you can present resources that are convincing I would be inclined to reject any bath idea intended in this text. Even if there is a source to back up the goading into a bath, it would have been an occasional reason for one out of thousand goads for guiding them. Why would that one reason out of all the other reasons for goading them on a daily basis be intended by the reference? Sounds like an unlikely conjecture and supposition.

Thank you for your measured answer. We all have our view. I might have missed it, bit do you think that flesh and blood can reveal Jesus as the Son of God, or are each of us (believers) invested with this revelation from the Father?

 

[throughfaith]

If you resist or reject, it means you never received the gift of salvation by grace through faith.


Ephesians 2 (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

ESV that calvinsts go to bible 😀

 

[BenjaminN]

You have take a passage OUT OF CONTEXT to promote your unbiblical ideas. So who is this portion speaking about? The believing remnant of ISRAEL, called "the elect".

Let's see how this chapter begins in order to confirm that you are misapplying Scripture: I say then, Hath God cast away his people [ISRAEL]? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Paul is dealing with the general unbelief of the Jews and yet there is a small believing remnant of Israel. Why did God harden the hearts of those who did not believe? Because to begin with THEY WOULD NOT BELIEVE. See Matthew 13.

No, it was in God's will, to temporarily harden their hearts, until the fulness of the Gentiles have come in, that in this way, ALL ISRAEL, chosen by God, can be saved.

 

[throughfaith]

Romans 11:5-8: Is Israel not part of so that "all men", "everyone" can be saved, taken out of context? Yet God can close or open eyes, and bestows salvation on whom he chose, when he chose, after their partial hardening has been lifted, and the fulness of the Gentiles have come in, so that in this way ALL ISRAEL, chosen by God, can be saved.

You've been sold the paradigm my friend .

 

[BenjaminN]

BenjaminN said:
If you resist or reject, it means you never received the gift of salvation by grace through faith.


Ephesians 2 (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

ESV that calvinsts go to bible 😀

Ephesians 2 (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[throughfaith]

So do we need this Previenient grace?
According to classical Arminianism it is an operation of the Holy Spirit that frees the sinner’s will from bondage to sin and convicts, calls, illumines and enables the sinner to respond to the gospel call with repentance and faith (conversion). Calvinists and Arminians agree, against Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism, that the sinner’s will is so depraved and bound to sin that it cannot respond positively to the gospel call without supernatural grace.

 

[Corban]

Nobody is getting an ' inner call ' . Paul is spoken to Audibly.

Voice or not, was it a revelation from the Lord? But suppose I grant you a voice-mail in Paul's case, do you think it was a revelation of the Lord as Son of God, or because he was kicking against the God. When did he actually say, "Lord"? Was it before or after the voice identified Himself.

I think you know the score brother because there was no voice for the 3,000 on Pentecost, nor a voice for the Eunuch.

Let's leave the matter for a while. It can be reviewed by each of us without all the effort being expended to defend our stated position.

 

[throughfaith]

BenjaminN said:
If you resist or reject, it means you never received the gift of salvation by grace through faith.

Ephesians 2 (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,





Ephesians 2 (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11¶Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

 

[BenjaminN]

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11¶Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[throughfaith]

Voice or not, was it a revelation from the Lord? But suppose I grant you a voice-mail in Paul's case, do you think it was a revelation of the Lord as Son of God, or because he was kicking against the God. When did he actually say, "Lord"? Was it before or after the voice identified Himself.

I think you know the score brother because there was no voice for the 3,000 on Pentecost, nor a voice for the Eunuch.

Let's leave the matter for a while. It can be reviewed by each of us without all the effort being expended to defend our stated position.

I would take each case on its own. I think its safe to say Paul's experience is unique as was the apostles.

 

[Corban]

I'm guilty too . I have my presupposition s I'm trying to constantly trying to recognise and eliminate.

Then we're in the same club. I was just lamenting to my wife a few days ago, a half dozen things that I can't explain. The trouble is, the mind is an unruly horse and ends up supposing something just to fill the gap. But I've learned over the years, (i) the Lord is probably not going to let any man have all knowledge, or (ii) it's going to be an embarrasing thorn in the flesh like Paul's. Oh! That's one of the things I speculate about. But isn't the Lord gracious not to humble Paul further?

 

[throughfaith]

not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Yes salvation is the gift of God . Again , imagining Paul is always harping on about how its only the special frozen chosen that were gifted this super power called faith is folly . There already converted .
No one ever read these verses and concluded " yeah its faith thats gifted " . The whole idea is foreign to the entire bible and God being pleased or dis pleased by our believing in him or not Believing in him . You have to have a presupposition before you read eph 2 to possibly arrive at that conclusion.

 

[Corban]

Prevevient Grace is a better concept than irresistible Grace although not altogether accurate.
I really haven't put together my thoughts on this completely yet, but I will try to explain what I mean.
Upon hearing the Gospel of truth the Holy Spirit begins a work of conviction that weighs against the will of the human. (The human will only serves to resist the gospel and God) some will muster up resistance and reinforce their resistance, but others their will breaks and they submit, and grace enters in by the word of the gospel (thus some plant, some water, and some harvest) and convinces of Jesus and this human who has under the weight of conviction is broken and now convinced, repents and believes. Now this person is regenerate and becomes joined to Christ in baptism sealing them in Christ's death burial and resurrection by the Holy Ghost.
But the man who rejects hardens his heart and becomes bitter in his conviction, reinforcing his rejection and unless his will be broken he will die in it and be damned.

This is how I see it from the Bible.
I don't see irresistible Grace at all, I do see many reject grace, and many broken under the weight of conviction, or as scripture describes as cut through the heart.

We can certainly agree on some points.

 

[Corban]

Yes salvation is the gift of God . Again , imagining Paul is always harping on about how its only the special frozen chosen that were gifted this super power called faith is folly . There already converted .
No one ever read these verses and concluded " yeah its faith thats gifted " . The whole idea is foreign to the entire bible and God being pleased or dis pleased by our believing in him or not Believing in him . You have to have a presupposition before you read eph 2 to possibly arrive at that conclusion.

But you've still to deal with Hebrew 12:2a.

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; ... ."

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

I would take each case on its own. I think its safe to say Paul's experience is unique as was the apostles.

This is correct. Therefore it's not possible to set their experience as a precedence for how the rest will experience.

 

[throughfaith]

But you've still to deal with Hebrew 12:2a.

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; ... ."

I don't think that's talking about individuals . But rather From The beginning, from moses to the present Jesus is the Author and finisher of our faith .