PREVENIENT GRACE: AN ARMINIAN ERROR

[calibob]

Meaning this would be an area where we can address the things being said to ' the body ' as that definitely includes believers today..Now the knee jerk reaction is to get the sanctimonious reaction " so we just throw out the rest of the bible " ect or worse still " Jesus is the same yesterday, today and ...."

This is starting to sound lik a place I used to work. It was a nondenominational Church and school of theology. people shared many different doctrines. Rapture theories, works vs grace, where is hell etc... and there seldom a resolution or consensus about who was right or wrong. In other words, It's getting boring. Like the string "not by works" became

 

[throughfaith]

You limit yourself to only Paul's writings, that is your business, not mine. Ephraim / the Gentiles is not the complete Body of Christ, Judah / the Jews is temporarily hardened, until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel (Ephraim / the Gentiles and Judah / the Jews) will be saved. (Romans 11, I think it was Paul who wrote this, so maybe it applies to your limited view, of only Paul's writings applying to you.)


Romans 11 (ESV)

25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; 27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

Or the knee jerk reaction is " limited to Paul " no im trying to read what the bible says and to who .

 

[BenjaminN]

Nope you became a child of God through the new birth. John 1.12 . Were not Adopted as in the American, western adoption way . Inspite of many theologians and Sunday school teachers teach . Nor is it the reformed " already and not yet " post hoc rationalization either .
Let's what the Adoption is according to scripture, and here we see a Jewish understanding of the term . Meaning its something full grown sons get later ..For us its the glorification of our body .The toga if you will . The manifestation OF the sons of God . The ' conformed to his image ' . When we will BE like him ect .

Rom 8.23
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, WAITING !!!!! for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
So whats the adoption ? If you were to survey anybody reading Rom 8.23 and asked what the Adoption is , it would have to be the redemption of our body.

When calibob was adopted into Israel: When saved: 1977. day before penticost, Long Beach Cali

and this was predestined by God, before the foundation of the world.

 

[throughfaith]

When calibob was adopted into Israel: When saved: 1977. day before penticost, Long Beach Cali

'Adopted ' into Israel is not a term used any where?
Are you also thinking the American, western' Adoption'?

 

[BenjaminN]

Or the knee jerk reaction is " limited to Paul " no im trying to read what the bible says and to who .

The whole bible is applicable to all of Israel, and only to Israel. Israel being Ephraim / the Gentiles and Judah / the Jews. Israel is the Body of Christ, his Bride.


Revelation 21 (ESV)

2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 12 It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed—

 

[calibob]

Nope you became a child of God through the new birth. John 1.12 . Were not Adopted as in the American, western adoption way . Inspite of many theologians and Sunday school teachers teach . Nor is it the reformed " already and not yet " post hoc rationalization either .
Let's what the Adoption is according to scripture, and here we see a Jewish understanding of the term . Meaning its something full grown sons get later ..For us its the glorification of our body .The toga if you will . The manifestation OF the sons of God . The ' conformed to his image ' . When we will BE like him ect .

Rom 8.23
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, WAITING !!!!! for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
So whats the adoption ? If you were to survey anybody reading Rom 8.23 and asked what the Adoption is , it would have to be the redemption of our body.

I became a child of Wade and Minnie in 57,t I became of God in 77 when I was saved and got Re-baptized. In a park's lagoon, with non believers watching. Then we played volleyball and had a sing along. We made a joyful noise..

 

[throughfaith]

You limit yourself to only Paul's writings, that is your business, not mine. Ephraim / the Gentiles is not the complete Body of Christ, Judah / the Jews is temporarily hardened, until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel (Ephraim / the Gentiles and Judah / the Jews) will be saved. (Romans 11, I think it was Paul who wrote this, so maybe it applies to your limited view, of only Paul's writings applying to you.)


Romans 11 (ESV)

25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; 27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

 

[throughfaith]

I became a child of Wade and Minnie in 57,t I became of God in 77 when I was saved and got Re-baptized. In a park's lagoon, with non believers watching. Then we played volleyball and had a sing along. We made a joyful noise..

Amen .

 

[calibob]

Nope you became a child of God through the new birth. John 1.12 . Were not Adopted as in the American, western adoption way . Inspite of many theologians and Sunday school teachers teach . Nor is it the reformed " already and not yet " post hoc rationalization either .
Let's what the Adoption is according to scripture, and here we see a Jewish understanding of the term . Meaning its something full grown sons get later ..For us its the glorification of our body .The toga if you will . The manifestation OF the sons of God . The ' conformed to his image ' . When we will BE like him ect .

Rom 8.23
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, WAITING !!!!! for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
So whats the adoption ? If you were to survey anybody reading Rom 8.23 and asked what the Adoption is , it would have to be the redemption of our body.

Do you not have a sense of humor? I know that God has a sense of humor because he made ME! In his image.

 

[BenjaminN]

I became a child of Wade and Minnie in 57,t I became of God in 77 when I was saved and got Re-baptized. In a park's lagoon, with non believers watching. Then we played volleyball and had a sing along. We made a joyful noise..

Micah 2 (ESV)

12 I will surely assemble all of you, O Jacob; I will gather the remnant of Israel; I will set them together like sheep in a fold, like a flock in its pasture, a noisy multitude of men.

 

[BenjaminN]

Matthew 10 (ESV)

5 These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans, 6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


Matthew 15 (ESV)

24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."


Ephesians 3 (ESV)

4 When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. 6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Israel's ten tribes of Ephraim is living among the Gentiles, Ephraim is the fullness of the Gentiles.

 

[BenjaminN]

Romans 11 (ESV)

25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";


Genesis 48 (Young's Literal Translation)

17 And Joseph seeth that his father setteth his right hand on the head of Ephraim, and it is wrong in his eyes, and he supporteth the hand of his father to turn it aside from off the head of Ephraim to the head of Manasseh; 18 and Joseph saith unto his father, `Not so, my father, for this [is] the first-born; set thy right hand on his head.'19 And his father refuseth, and saith, `I have known, my son, I have known; he also becometh a people, and he also is great, and yet, his young brother is greater than he, and his seed is the fulness of the nations;'

 

[throughfaith]

Agreed. But TF seems to think this has nothing to do with the gospel.

Because where is the verse that says every man recieved the same revelation Peter recieved . Or Noah for that matter. Or Job for that matter . Let's go crazy and say we all recieve the same revelation as everyone had in the bible. Forget initial evidence lol .
Mat 16
13¶When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14¶And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15¶He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16¶And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17¶And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

I don't see how we are randomly applying this verse for everyone after the cross ( by faith not by sight ) as if its saying " can't believe the Gospel unless a special irresistible inner work of revelation from the Father comes first " ??? This is before the cross .
Did the Father then forget to tell Peter not to prevent Jesus to go the cross ,prompting Jesus to tell him " get behind me satan " . Or when he cut a man's ear off trying to to also prevent the only event that can save the world from their sins. The father did not cause or enable Peter to understand the death ,burial and resurrection until after the resurrection. And then subsequently it was 10 years after Acts 2 did Peter know or understand the inclusion of the Gentiles.??? This is a terrible example to use to say God has to cause you to believe so that he's pleased by your believing.

 

[throughfaith]

Because where is the verse that says every man recieved the same revelation Peter recieved . Or Noah for that matter. Or Job for that matter . Let's go crazy and say we all recieve the same revelation as everyone had in the bible. Forget initial evidence lol .
Mat 16
13¶When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14¶And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15¶He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16¶And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17¶And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

I don't see how we are randomly applying this verse for everyone after the cross ( by faith not by sight ) as if its saying " can't believe the Gospel unless a special irresistible inner work of revelation from the Father comes first " ??? This is before the cross .
Did the Father then forget to tell Peter not to prevent Jesus to go the cross ,prompting Jesus to tell him " get behind me satan " . Or when he cut a man's ear off trying to to also prevent the only event that can save the world from their sins. The father did not cause or enable Peter to understand the death ,burial and resurrection until after the resurrection. And then subsequently it was 10 years after Acts 2 did Peter know or understand the inclusion of the Gentiles.??? This is a terrible example to use to say God has to cause you to believe so that he's pleased by your believing.

Like wise Paul was given direct revelation from Jesus about things not revealed prior. Mysteries. So we all have to have the exact same revelation also?

 

[calibob]

Matthew 10 (ESV)

5 These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans, 6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


Matthew 15 (ESV)

24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."


Ephesians 3 (ESV)

4 When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. 6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Israel's ten tribes of Ephraim is living among the Gentiles, Ephraim is the fullness of the Gentiles.

That's a good way to close this line of dialogue.

@throughfaith are you trying to convert us towards your line of thinking? Guess what. Your not the only one here that has studied the Bible and you are not the smartest guy in the room either.

 

[throughfaith]

I've read and noted your points. I'll let mine stand. Every man who ever admits Jesus as the Son of God has recieved that revelation from the Father in heaven. But I appreciate your humor too.

Paul was not taught by any man ,receiving his revelation from Jesus . By the logic you gave about Peters revelation , do you also believe that we also have the same revelation as Paul had?

 

[throughfaith]

That's a good way to close this line of dialogue.

@throughfaith are you trying to convert us towards your line of thinking? Guess what. Your not the only one here that has studied the Bible and you are not the smartest guy in the room either.

No I'm respectfully responding on my thread, about my topic .

 

[calibob]

Let's go crazy

Let's not!

 

[throughfaith]

When calibob was adopted into Israel: When saved: 1977. day before penticost, Long Beach Cali

and this was predestined by God, before the foundation of the world.

Again thats wrong .Where does it say that ? Your twisting Eph 1.4 with eph 1.5 .?

 

[throughfaith]

Let's not!

Its too late lol

 

[throughfaith]

The whole bible is applicable to all of Israel, and only to Israel. Israel being Ephraim / the Gentiles and Judah / the Jews. Israel is the Body of Christ, his Bride.


Revelation 21 (ESV)

2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 12 It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed—

12And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

Israel