PREVENIENT GRACE: AN ARMINIAN ERROR

[calibob]

Well I'm not familiar with word(s) PREVENIENT grace or it's doctrine(s) After looking up the word and it's
synonyms: preliminary · prior · previous · antecedent · preceding... I would tent to believe it because the Lord died for us before we knew him and,,, we don't deserve it and never will.

 

[Blain]

Let's ma

Then its not by faith then is it ? Is God like the man that has to hypnotise a woman in order for her to choose him ?

You completely missed what he saying

 

[BenjaminN]

Let's ma

Then its not by faith then is it ? Is God like the man that has to hypnotise a woman in order for her to choose him ?

Ephesians 1 (ESV)

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

 

[throughfaith]

I've read and noted your points. I'll let mine stand. Every man who ever admits Jesus as the Son of God has recieved that revelation from the Father in heaven. But I appreciate your humor too.

I'm not here to argue what people have decided . I still see what your doing is taking one application which is specific and applying it general. I think its not a good way to read the scriptures. Its the difference between inductive method and inductive reasoning. I see you doing inductive reasoning.

 

[Magenta]

Every man who ever admits Jesus as the Son of God has recieved that revelation from the Father in heaven.

Agreed. But TF seems to think this has nothing to do with the gospel.

 

[BenjaminN]

I'm not here to argue what people have decided . I still see what your doing is taking one application which is specific and applying it general. I think its not a good way to read the scriptures. Its the difference between inductive method and inductive reasoning. I see you doing inductive reasoning.

Are you addressed in the Bible, is there a specific verse, only one, you can quote it, with your name in it, written to you, to be applied to your life only, and personally to you? Does Ephesians 1:1-13 not applied to you?

 

[Blain]

I need to take a break this thread is giving me the worst headache

 

[calibob]

You can not earn your salvation, by having your own faith, not originating from God, but only from yourself. If you can not give credit to God for your salvation by grace (that you would somehow have attained faith by yourself without Him), are you questioning the might of the Almighty?

Let me try and say it my way. Empty faith is like a bottomless bucket. It can never be fulfilled. Lots of false religions have faithful followers. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Joseph Smith, Reverend Moon etc. There plenty of narcistic people who don't have faith in anything or anybody than themselves Like Stalin and Hitler only faith in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is the way to grace thru faith.

 

[Nehemiah6]

PREVENIENT GRACE: AN ARMINIAN ERROR

The title of this thread is in error since there is no error is prevenient grace. According to Theopedia, Arminians have the proper understanding of prevenient grace (see below). The Calvinistic idea of Irresistible Grace is false. Since grace is offered to all mankind, it is universal.

Prevenient grace
Prevenient grace refers to the grace of God in a person's life that precedes conversion (or salvation). The word "prevenient," considered an archaic term today, was common in the King James English and simply means to "go before" or "precede." Likewise, it is sometimes called "preventing" grace (from prevenient) with the same meaning.

• In Reformed Theology, it is the particular grace which precedes human decision -- a salvific grace prior to, and without reference to, anything we have done. See Irresistible grace, sometimes called efficacious grace or the effectual call.
• 
  
• In Arminianism and Wesleyanism, it is a grace that offsets the noetic effects of the Fall, restores man's free will, and thus enables every person to choose to come to Christ or not. There are two forms of this view:
  • Universal prevenient grace — This grace is extended to every person.
  • Individualistic prevenient grace — This grace is only extended to those who come under the intelligent hearing of the gospel, and not to every person.
• In Romanism (i.e., Roman Catholic), it is an assisting grace which aids people who choose to co-operate in justifying themselves. See Council of Trent (Sess. VI, cap. v).

 

[throughfaith]

Exactly. Without the Holy Spirit of God convicting us of sin, we would perish in our sins.

Because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive in Christ
even when we were dead in transgressions – it is by grace you have been saved.

When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision
of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ.

Did you circumcise yourself? No, you did not. The text is clear: not by human hands.

Your taking what happens AFTER we believe...Eph 1
13¶In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

This bit and applying it as if I've caused this bit to happen by my own will . Notice the words AFTER .
It pleases God AFTER we believe ( by our tiny child like faith . Faith COMES by hearing the word of God. Its quick and POWERFUL) TO save us . The to SAVE us is REGENERATION, and sealing by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. We don't and cannot do this bit .

 

[throughfaith]

Ephesians 1 (ESV)

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

After they HOPED . After they Believed. How is this being complicated? We believe he saves . Simple .

 

[BenjaminN]

After they HOPED . After they Believed. How is this being complicated? We believe he saves . Simple .

Ephesians 1 (ESV)

5 he predestined us for ....

 

[throughfaith]

Are you addressed in the Bible, is there a specific verse, only one, you can quote it, with your name in it, written to you, to be applied to your life only, and personally to you? Does Ephesians 1:1-13 not applied to you?

Ok finally. Now we're having a bible study . Ok we are the body the church and all members .So that's a start . We can apply in context with that in mind . Thats one example of what I'm trying to say . instead we see ( and I used to be guilty of doing the same, and still have to check myself at times still ) is people applying nearly verse to themselves. Especially if its in red.

 

[throughfaith]

Ephesians 1 (ESV)

5 he predestined us for ....

Adoption. Now when is that ? Read Rom 8.23 .

 

[calibob]

Adoption. Now when is that ? Read Rom 8.23 .

I was adopted in 1957.

 

[throughfaith]

Ok finally. Now we're having a bible study . Ok we are the body the church and all members .So that's a start . We can apply in context with that in mind . Thats one example of what I'm trying to say . instead we see ( and I used to be guilty of doing the same, and still have to check myself at times still ) is people applying nearly verse to themselves. Especially if its in red.

Meaning this would be an area where we can address the things being said to ' the body ' as that definitely includes believers today..Now the knee jerk reaction is to get the sanctimonious reaction " so we just throw out the rest of the bible " ect or worse still " Jesus is the same yesterday, today and ...."

 

[BenjaminN]

Adoption. Now when is that ? Read Rom 8.23 .

Romans 8 (ESV)

22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience. 26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

 

[BenjaminN]

Meaning this would be an area where we can address the things being said to ' the body ' as that definitely includes believers today..Now the knee jerk reaction is to get the sanctimonious reaction " so we just throw out the rest of the bible " ect or worse still " Jesus is the same yesterday, today and ...."

You limit yourself to only Paul's writings, that is your business, not mine. Ephraim / the Gentiles is not the complete Body of Christ, Judah / the Jews is temporarily hardened, until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel (Ephraim / the Gentiles and Judah / the Jews) will be saved. (Romans 11, I think it was Paul who wrote this, so maybe it applies to your limited view, of only Paul's writings applying to you.)


Romans 11 (ESV)

25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; 27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

 

[throughfaith]

I was adopted in 1957.

Nope you became a child of God through the new birth. John 1.12 . Were not Adopted as in the American, western adoption way . Inspite of many theologians and Sunday school teachers teach . Nor is it the reformed " already and not yet " post hoc rationalization either .
Let's what the Adoption is according to scripture, and here we see a Jewish understanding of the term . Meaning its something full grown sons get later ..For us its the glorification of our body .The toga if you will . The manifestation OF the sons of God . The ' conformed to his image ' . When we will BE like him ect .

Rom 8.23
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, WAITING !!!!! for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
So whats the adoption ? If you were to survey anybody reading Rom 8.23 and asked what the Adoption is , it would have to be the redemption of our body.

 

[throughfaith]

Romans 8 (ESV)

22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience. 26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Your not conformed to his image . No one is until he returns .
Romans 8:19

“For the earnest expectation of the creature WAITETH for the MANIFESTATION of the sons of God.”

1 John 3:2

“Beloved, NOW are we the sons of God, and it doth NOT YET appear what we SHALL BE : but we know that, when he shall appear, we SHALL BE like him; for we shall see him as he is.”