"The Soul That Sinneth, It SHALL Die."

[Phoneman-777]

I trust the words of Christ (objective truth) have total authority for in your estimation.

The words of Christ ARE the words of Solomon, for Solomon was inspired by Him. Solomon says the dead "know not anything".

so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (Mt 12:39,40)

This is also called "the lower parts of the earth" by Paul in Ephesians 4:9, where he says that Christ "descended" to the lower parts of the earth. Therefore it is perfectly legitimate to say that that would be near the core of the earth.

It is also perfectly legitimate to say that it means "under the ground" or "in a tomb". And since both are legit explanations, we must rely on the OTHER texts to ascertain the meaning. And what do the other texts say? The dead don't know anything, don't feel anything, don't remember anything, don't plan anything, don't praise anything, don't accomplish anything, don't speak or break silence, right or wrong?

[/QUOTE]... the soul and spirit of Christ would not be left in Sheol/Hades but that He would be resurrected. [/QUOTE] The Spirit of Christ is never suggested to be in Sheol/Hades; He commended His Spirit to God because that's where the Spirit goes when the Soul dies.

Psalm 16:10: Sheol incorrectly translated as "hell": For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [SHEOL]; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
כִּ֤י ׀ לֹא־תַעֲזֹ֣ב נַפְשִׁ֣י לִשְׁאֹ֑ול לֹֽא־תִתֵּ֥ן חֲ֝סִידְךָ֗ לִרְאֹ֥ות שָֽׁחַת ׃

Acts 2:27: Hades incorrectly translated as "hell": Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, [HADES] neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
ὅτι οὐκ ἐγκαταλείψεις τὴν ψυχήν μου εἰς ᾅδου* (ᾅδην) , οὐδὲ δώσεις τὸν ὅσιόν σου ἰδεῖν διαφθοράν.

"Incorrectly translated" because the word was not left in Greek? Hardly. It is correctly translated "hell" from "Hades" which means "place of the dead" or "grave".

Now we turn to the lexicons and concordances:

Strong's Concordance
sheol: underworld (place to which people descend at death)
Original Word: שְׁאוֹל
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: sheol
Phonetic Spelling: (sheh-ole')
Definition: underworld (place to which people descend at death)
Brown-Driver-Briggs
שְׁאָ֫לָה Isaiah 7:11 see שְׁאוֺל 1 below
שְׁאוֺל, שְׁאֹל noun feminine Psalm 86:13 (apparently masculine Job 26:6 compare Isaiah 14:9, see AlbrZAW xvi(1896), 51) She®°ôl, underworld

Yes, people are lowered at least six feet into the ground to the "underworld" which means "underneath this world" or "underground", right or wrong?

Strong's Concordance
hadés: Hades, the abode of departed spirits
Original Word: ᾍδης, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: hadés
Phonetic Spelling: (hah'-dace)
Definition: Hades, the abode of departed spirits

HOLD ON A MINUTE! This definition is BOGUS. "Departed Spirits" RETURN to the God Who gave them, according to what Solomon says (Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV), what Jesus said (Luke 23:46 KJV) and what Stephen said (Acts 7:59 KJV). There's not a solitary verse in all the Bible that talks about an "abode for departed spirits" of dead people.

Thayer's: 2. an appellative, Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead

Yes, the place of the dead is the grave...hence the term "graveyard".

Now that we know that Sheol/Hades is NOT hell, but the place of departed souls and spirits, we also know that this is DEFINITELY NOT the grave. Cadavers go into graves, not souls and spirits. The body of Christ was in His tomb, but where was His soul and spirit? In Sheol/Hades. "in the heart of the earth". Which means that you have to totally abandon your ideas about the afterlife.[/QUOTE]

 

[Phoneman-777]

brother does this suggest what he’s saying ? Or does it support what you are saying ? Jesus is actually the wisest man to ever live why wouldn’t you accept his word ?

“The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, One greater than Solomon is here.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭11:31‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:

the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:22-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Note he is not only alive after his death he is conscious and aware of the situation both his in hell and those he left behind . Man was created with a body filled with a living spirit , we have two aspects.

The life of man is his spirit , the flesh is only a vehicle by which to
Live our estate on earth inside to determine our future after this short test of faith we walk in this world

Jesus understood things we couldn’t but he made them known and said believe

“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus is NOT going to contradict Solomon whom He inspired to write prophetically. And to make the PARABLE of the Rich Man and Lazarus a literal story is to make Jesus contradict Himself when He told Solomon to tell us "the dead know not anything" and in death do not break the silence, praise God, lay plans, accomplish work, possess knowledge, wisdom, emotions, or memories, etc.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Do you deny that the rich man went to a place of torment upon his death (Hell) as shown below in Luke 16:22-25?

Luke 16:22-25KJV
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Parables often contain many things which cannot and do not happen in real experience, right or wrong?

There's no way the Rich Man and Lazarus can be a literal story, because the passage is FILLED with parabolic elements which if made literal CONTRADICT the rest of Scritpure, but if left symbolic, present a solemn warning to the Jews, which warning is just another of the many that Jesus presented to them: that if they don't get their act together, the table are going to be turned on them...which ultimately came to pass.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Then there is a massive problem, for the Bible tells me that the SOUL of our Lord Jesus was in Hades after His death. You say that it ceased to exist

Yes, a "dead soul" is a person who has ceased to live, so Jesus "soul" was not left in hades, or the grave.

the SOULS of martyrs cried out (Rev.6:9-10). But a Martyr is a dead man

Wow, where do I start? Revelation is a SYMBOLIC book. That said, it is true that "the life is in the blood". What drained down under the altar? Yes, blood. Just as "Abel's blood crieth out unto Me", so the same is depicted in Revelation. It is a symbolic way of saying that when God sees His faithful martyred, there is a great sense of the need for God's justice to me metered out. It does NOT mean red and white corpuscles dialogue with anyone, and if that is not enough to convince you, I redirect you back to Solomon or David or Job who all said that dead folks don't speak or know anything.

the SOUL of a boy who was dead came to him in resurrection (1st Ki.17:22). How could it if it has ceased to exist?

"Soul" simply means "life". So, yes "life" came back into a dead soul and it once again became a living soul.

The SOUL is mentioned 458 times in the Bible. It can feel emotions, think a problem through, and make decisions. I don't believe for a moment that it has poetic meaning. It is a very real part of man, and from Genesis 2:7 onward, man is always referred to as a "SOUL" (Gen.12:5, 46:15, Act.2:41, etc. etc.).

Well, since the "soul" is the "person", the "I", the "ego", the "self", then yes, it can experience all those things. Did you know that living animals are souls, too?

When someone says, "There wasn't a soul in the place", do they mean there wasn't any disembodied transparent apparitions floating around --- OR --do they mean THERE WASN'T ANY PEOPLE IN THE PLACE?

 

[Phoneman-777]

Do your really believe Ellen G. White had 2,000+ Dreams And Visions?


Ellen G. White - Wikipedia

White claimed to have received over 2,000 visions and dreams from God in public and private meetings throughout her life, which were witnessed by Adventist pioneers and the general public. She verbally described and published for public consumption the content of the alleged visions.

Founded: Avondale University College, Seventh-day Adventist Church

Do you believe that in the last days "your sons AND DAUGHTERS shall prophesy"? There are many false prophets/prophetesses that have come upon the scene: Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, Alice A. Bailey, Johanna Southcott, Edgar Cayce, C. T. Russell, Joseph Smith, Nostrodamus, etc.

Isn't in interesting that in the 19th century at the time when prophecy said God was going to raise up a movement to present the last warning message of Revelation 14:6-12 KJV to the world, at the same time the devil raised up all these false prophets, with EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM leading people AWAY from Scripture.....while EGW was the ONLY one that pointed people BACK TO THE BIBLE?

"The Bible and the Bible ALONE is to be our creed...the SOLE bond of union." -- EGW

 

[Truth7t7]

Do you believe that in the last days "your sons AND DAUGHTERS shall prophesy"? There are many false prophets/prophetesses that have come upon the scene: Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, Alice A. Bailey, Johanna Southcott, Edgar Cayce, C. T. Russell, Joseph Smith, Nostrodamus, etc.

Isn't in interesting that in the 19th century at the time when prophecy said God was going to raise up a movement to present the last warning message of Revelation 14:6-12 KJV to the world, at the same time the devil raised up all these false prophets, with EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM leading people AWAY from Scripture.....while EGW was the ONLY one that pointed people BACK TO THE BIBLE?

"The Bible and the Bible ALONE is to be our creed...the SOLE bond of union." -- EGW

I appreciate your response, but you didnt answer my question, I'll post it again.

Question: Do your really believe Ellen G. White had 2,000+ Dreams And Visions?

Ellen G. White - Wikipedia

White claimed to have received over 2,000 visions and dreams from God in public and private meetings throughout her life, which were witnessed by Adventist pioneers and the general public. She verbally described and published for public consumption the content of the alleged visions.

Founded: Avondale University College, Seventh-day Adventist Church

 

[Corban]

Yes, a "dead soul" is a person who has ceased to live, so Jesus "soul" was not left in hades, or the grave.

Wow, where do I start? Revelation is a SYMBOLIC book. That said, it is true that "the life is in the blood". What drained down under the altar? Yes, blood. Just as "Abel's blood crieth out unto Me", so the same is depicted in Revelation. It is a symbolic way of saying that when God sees His faithful martyred, there is a great sense of the need for God's justice to me metered out. It does NOT mean red and white corpuscles dialogue with anyone, and if that is not enough to convince you, I redirect you back to Solomon or David or Job who all said that dead folks don't speak or know anything.

"Soul" simply means "life". So, yes "life" came back into a dead soul and it once again became a living soul.

Well, since the "soul" is the "person", the "I", the "ego", the "self", then yes, it can experience all those things. Did you know that living animals are souls, too?

When someone says, "There wasn't a soul in the place", do they mean there wasn't any disembodied transparent apparitions floating around --- OR --do they mean THERE WASN'T ANY PEOPLE IN THE PLACE?

Your answer is appreciated, read and noted. Go well bro.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Jesus is NOT going to contradict Solomon whom He inspired to write prophetically. And to make the PARABLE of the Rich Man and Lazarus a literal story is to make Jesus contradict Himself when He told Solomon to tell us "the dead know not anything" and in death do not break the silence, praise God, lay plans, accomplish work, possess knowledge, wisdom, emotions, or memories, etc.

ahh ok I see well thanks for clearing all that up

 

[Phoneman-777]

I appreciate your response, but you didnt answer my question, I'll post it again.

Question: Do your really believe Ellen G. White had 2,000+ Dreams And Visions?

Ellen G. White - Wikipedia

White claimed to have received over 2,000 visions and dreams from God in public and private meetings throughout her life, which were witnessed by Adventist pioneers and the general public. She verbally described and published for public consumption the content of the alleged visions.

Founded: Avondale University College, Seventh-day Adventist Church

The question is NOT whether she had dreams and visions - she did. She was even medically examined by physicians and proven to exhibit the exact Biblical criteria found in Scripture describing what physiological manifestations accompany a prophet in vision. The question IS: were they from God or from Satan? Isaiah and Paul tell us how to answer it:

"Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things, hold fast to that which is good."

"To the Law and to the Testimony (a Biblical phrase meaning "the Word of God"), if they speak not according to THIS word, it us because there is no light in them."

 

[Phoneman-777]

ahh ok I see well thanks for clearing all that up

If Christians would lay aside popular myths and just read the Scriptures, there'd be no need for it

 

[Truth7t7]

The question is NOT whether she had dreams and visions - she did. She was even medically examined by physicians and proven to exhibit the exact Biblical criteria found in Scripture describing what physiological manifestations accompany a prophet in vision. The question IS: were they from God or from Satan? Isaiah and Paul tell us how to answer it:

"Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things, hold fast to that which is good."

"To the Law and to the Testimony (a Biblical phrase meaning "the Word of God"), if they speak not according to THIS word, it us because there is no light in them."

Once again

I appreciate your response, but you didnt answer my question, I'll post it again.

Direct Question: Do your really believe Ellen G. White had 2,000+ Dreams And Visions?

2,000+ Dreams And Visions?
2,000+ Dreams And Visions?
2,000+ Dreams And Visions?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

If Christians would lay aside popular myths and just read the Scriptures, there'd be no need for it

yea or they could believe Jesus who was sent by God to save them and what he said and be humble enough to let his word be the one that’s true when we don’t have it right helps also

simply because If someone were to ask Jesus

“Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth:

he that cometh from heaven is above all. And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth;

and no man receiveth his testimony.

He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:

and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:31-36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s pretty good idea I believe to believe the things jesus preached but believing sort of requires humility when what we think conflicts with what he said in his own words . So salvation is what he said Regardless of my opinion or anyone else’s

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭

there’s no philosophy afterwards that will change that or this

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations;

and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s not going to change at any point so like Jesus said so Many times

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

‬always will be true

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32, 51‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he’s definitely the one to believe even if people explain he’s not with those strange doctrines

 

[Phoneman-777]

Once again

I appreciate your response, but you didnt answer my question, I'll post it again.

Direct Question: Do your really believe Ellen G. White had 2,000+ Dreams And Visions?

2,000+ Dreams And Visions?
2,000+ Dreams And Visions?
2,000+ Dreams And Visions?

I can't answer because I've never read all of her writings...but if she truly is a prophetess of God, then why not?

 

[Phoneman-777]

I can't answer because I've never read all of her writings...but if she truly is a prophetess of God, then why not?

Sorry for the long absence, friend. I'll pick it up by saying that actually, the conversation here has NOTHING to do with EGW and EVERYTHING to do with "what does the Bible say?", does it not?

It is clear since you have no explanation for continuing to believe the lie there is consciousness in death, your only recourse it to deflect the discussion toward my Seventh-day Adventism -- and then attack my credibility on the basis of that, saying, "Oh, don't listen to Phoneman cause he's and SDA and follows a false prophet." Is that what Paul says? Did he say, "Despise not prophesyings UNLESS THE PERSON PRESENTING THE SPIRITUAL PROPOSTION IS A,B,C...prove all things, hold fast to that which is good"? Or, did he mean we should listen to the person and then test it against the Word of God?

Now, I ask you: is that what adults confident in their ideas do, or what immature children do? I offer NOTHING from the writings of EGW as evidence/support for this thread topic: ONLY SCRIPTURE. So, are you willing to discuss Scripture, or should we simply agree that your position cannot stand the test of Biblical scrutiny?

 

[Magenta]

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:

and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:31-36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That says it all right there

(he that believeth not the Son shall not see life)

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

If you are not already dead you will die.

 

[Phoneman-777]

That says it all right there

(he that believeth not the Son shall not see life)

If we have everlasting life now, why are Christians dying everyday? So, there remains either the one of these two alternatives from which to choose:

1) either there is consciousness in death, an idea which the Bible plainly denies over and over, or
2) God is speaking about things that shall be as though they are now, which examples we find over and over in Scripture

Right or wrong?

 

[Magenta]

If we have everlasting life now, why are Christians dying everyday? So, there remains either the one of these two alternatives from which to choose:

1) either there is consciousness in death, an idea which the Bible plainly denies over and over, or
2) God is speaking about things that shall be as though they are now, which examples we find over and over in Scripture

Right or wrong?

John 11:25-26

 

[Phoneman-777]

John 11:25-26

Yes, I like that! We must take ALL Scriptures into consideration which have their impact on a subject.

"Will live even though they die" points to the resurrection, which is when dead folks "will live" again after they die when Jesus said He will raise them up "at the last day". Until then, they lie dead without thoughts, emotions, wisdom, knowledge, and don't even utter one tone of praise to God, according to Solomon, David, Peter, Jesus, etc. Surely, if the dead were in heaven now, you couldn't shut them up, right or wrong?

 

[Magenta]

Yes, I like that! We must take ALL Scriptures into consideration which have their impact on a subject.

"Will live even though they die" points to the resurrection, which is when dead folks "will live" again after they die when Jesus said He will raise them up "at the last day". Until then, they lie dead without thoughts, emotions, wisdom, knowledge, and don't even utter one tone of praise for God, according to Solomon, David, Peter, Jesus, etc.

Jesus also said, we will never die