LIVING IN THE MILLENIA
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The biblical definition of (Forever) is in the scripture below.
Revelation 14:9-11KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelation 14:9-11KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Eternal Torment Is Never Taught In Scripture?
Your Living In A Fairy Tale Dream Land
Revelation 14:9-11KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Your Living In A Fairy Tale Dream Land
Revelation 14:9-11KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
The text says "blindness [/a hardening]... UNTIL" (which correlates with a number of other "UNTIL" passages on this Subject, which negate any idea of this being a "gradual unfolding of their coming to faith over time" as it pertains to "Israel" the nation--Rom9-11 basically covering the Subject of "nations"... "Israel [singular nation]" and "Gentiles [plural nations]").
No one is saying that they cannot come to faith at any time throughout "this present age [singular]"... they most certainly can and they do (thus becoming a member of "the Church which is His body"--all those saved "in this present age [singular]").
I cannot speak for others who've been contributing to this thread, but I believe that it is NOT the general viewpoint of "pre-tribbers" (such as I myself am) to say that Israel only comes to faith at the every END of the trib [or AFTER]. Not so! That is TOO LATE, at that point. In fact, FOLLOWING "our Rapture," they are the very ones [not saying 100% of them, at all], now [in the trib (future)] having come to faith themselves in those years, who will be taking up the reins, so to speak, and leading the charge!! [meaning, DOING the INVITING (of the "guests" [i.e. Gentiles]) TO "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER," aka earthly MK age!] It's who Matt25:40,45 is speaking of ['the least of these My brethren'], who are NOT the ones BEING "judged/separated" in the Sheep and goat judgment of the nations, for example.)
____________
So, I disagree that Romans 11:25-29,15 is saying what you are suggesting it is, but instead, corresponds precisely with what Hosea 5:14-6:3 is saying [not to mention other related passages] (re-posting old post of mine, for example of this):
[quoting old post]
I've posted this before about the "days" (and/or "day") issues (the ones that are not "singular 24-hr days"):
Hosea 5:15-6:3 [re: Israel] -
14 For I am like a lion to Ephraim
and like a young lion to the house of Judah.
I, even I, will tear them to pieces
and then go away.
I will carry them off
where no one can rescue them.
15 Then I will return to My place
until they admit their guilt and seek My face;
in their affliction
they will earnestly [or, early] seek Me.”
6:1 Come, let us [Israel] return to the LORD.
For He has torn us [Israel] to pieces,
but He will heal us [Israel];
He has wounded us [Israel],
but He will bind up our [Israel's] wounds.
2 After two days He will revive [H2421] us [Israel]; [see H2421 in Ezekiel 37 also, vv.3,5,6,9,10,14]
onin the third day He will raise [H6965] us [Israel] up, [see H6965 in Isaiah 26 also, v.19]
that we [Israel] may live [H2421 (ditto the above note)] in His presence.
3 So let us [Israel] know—
let us [Israel] press on to know the LORD.
As surely as the sun rises,
He will appear;
He will come to us [Israel] like the rain,
like the spring showers that water the earth [/as the latter rain unto the earth].
____________
[then... quoting Gaebelein's Commentary on Hosea 5]
"And like the lion after his attack withdraws to his den, so the Lord would withdraw from them, leave them and return to His place, waiting till their repentance comes and they seek Him early in their affliction.
"The last verse of this chapter has a wider meaning than the past judgment which came upon the house of Israel. The Lord of glory came to earth and visited His people. He came with the message and offer of the kingdom to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He came unto His own, but His own received Him not. After they had rejected Him, delivered Him into the hands of the Gentiles to be crucified, He returned to His place. There He is now at the right hand of God, waiting for that day, when the remnant of Israel will repent and seek His face Acts 3:19-26. [I mentioned Acts 3:21's reference to FUTURE events (i.e. the "UNTIL") in some thread]. That will be in their coming great affliction, in the time of Jacob’s trouble.
"Hosea 6:1-3. The division of the chapter at this point is unfortunate. The three verses of chapter 6 must not be detached from the previous chapter. Here we have the future repentance of the remnant of Israel, that is during the great tribulation [I would say "during the [7-yr] trib in its entirety, not just during the GREAT tribulation (i.e. 2nd half, merely)]. Believingly they will acknowledge His righteous judgment and express their faith and hope in His mercy and the promised blessings and restoration. They express what their great prophet Moses so beautifully stated in His prophetic song, that great vision given to him, ere he went to the mountain to die. “See now that I, even I, am He and there is no god with Me; I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; neither is there any that can deliver out of My hand” Deuteronomy 32:39. “After two days will He revive us; on the third day He will raise us up, and we shall live in His sight (literally, before His face).” They have been dead spiritually and nationally, but when the two days of their blindness and dispersion are over, there is coming for them the third day of life and [what is *LIKENED UNTO a] resurrection."
--Gaebelein, Commentary on Hosea 5 (taken from Bible Hub)
[end quoting Gaebelein; bold and underline mine; bracketed insertions mine, parentheses original]
____________
[note the passages I've listed before that *LIKEN this UNTO a RESURRECTION ^ (re: Israel's "FUTURE"): Romans 11:15(25-29); Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23; Isaiah 26:16-21; Daniel 12:1-4,10; John 6:39 (distinct from v.40); Hosea 5:14-6:3 "after TWO days" and "IN the THIRD day"... which is "THE LAST" of these three (counting from His resurrection/ascension [32ad], per Hos5:15), or "THE LAST" of seven (if you count from creation/Genesis 1, i.e. the "sabbatismos" of Heb4:9 (see Ex31:13,17 "it [the sabbath/7th day] is A SIGN between Me and the children of Israel for ever"), aka the Millennial Day of REST, that is, the 7th Millennium, or "THE LAST")]
I believe it is a big mistake to view the phrase "The Last Day" to be referring to "a singular 24-hr day"
[end quoting old post]
____________
Again... it is not the general thought to say they come to faith "AFTER HE RETURNS" (no).
No one is saying that they cannot come to faith at any time throughout "this present age [singular]"... they most certainly can and they do (thus becoming a member of "the Church which is His body"--all those saved "in this present age [singular]").
I cannot speak for others who've been contributing to this thread, but I believe that it is NOT the general viewpoint of "pre-tribbers" (such as I myself am) to say that Israel only comes to faith at the every END of the trib [or AFTER]. Not so! That is TOO LATE, at that point. In fact, FOLLOWING "our Rapture," they are the very ones [not saying 100% of them, at all], now [in the trib (future)] having come to faith themselves in those years, who will be taking up the reins, so to speak, and leading the charge!! [meaning, DOING the INVITING (of the "guests" [i.e. Gentiles]) TO "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER," aka earthly MK age!] It's who Matt25:40,45 is speaking of ['the least of these My brethren'], who are NOT the ones BEING "judged/separated" in the Sheep and goat judgment of the nations, for example.)
____________
So, I disagree that Romans 11:25-29,15 is saying what you are suggesting it is, but instead, corresponds precisely with what Hosea 5:14-6:3 is saying [not to mention other related passages] (re-posting old post of mine, for example of this):
[quoting old post]
I've posted this before about the "days" (and/or "day") issues (the ones that are not "singular 24-hr days"):
Hosea 5:15-6:3 [re: Israel] -
14 For I am like a lion to Ephraim
and like a young lion to the house of Judah.
I, even I, will tear them to pieces
and then go away.
I will carry them off
where no one can rescue them.
15 Then I will return to My place
until they admit their guilt and seek My face;
in their affliction
they will earnestly [or, early] seek Me.”
6:1 Come, let us [Israel] return to the LORD.
For He has torn us [Israel] to pieces,
but He will heal us [Israel];
He has wounded us [Israel],
but He will bind up our [Israel's] wounds.
2 After two days He will revive [H2421] us [Israel]; [see H2421 in Ezekiel 37 also, vv.3,5,6,9,10,14]
onin the third day He will raise [H6965] us [Israel] up, [see H6965 in Isaiah 26 also, v.19]
that we [Israel] may live [H2421 (ditto the above note)] in His presence.
3 So let us [Israel] know—
let us [Israel] press on to know the LORD.
As surely as the sun rises,
He will appear;
He will come to us [Israel] like the rain,
like the spring showers that water the earth [/as the latter rain unto the earth].
____________
[then... quoting Gaebelein's Commentary on Hosea 5]
"And like the lion after his attack withdraws to his den, so the Lord would withdraw from them, leave them and return to His place, waiting till their repentance comes and they seek Him early in their affliction.
"The last verse of this chapter has a wider meaning than the past judgment which came upon the house of Israel. The Lord of glory came to earth and visited His people. He came with the message and offer of the kingdom to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He came unto His own, but His own received Him not. After they had rejected Him, delivered Him into the hands of the Gentiles to be crucified, He returned to His place. There He is now at the right hand of God, waiting for that day, when the remnant of Israel will repent and seek His face Acts 3:19-26. [I mentioned Acts 3:21's reference to FUTURE events (i.e. the "UNTIL") in some thread]. That will be in their coming great affliction, in the time of Jacob’s trouble.
"Hosea 6:1-3. The division of the chapter at this point is unfortunate. The three verses of chapter 6 must not be detached from the previous chapter. Here we have the future repentance of the remnant of Israel, that is during the great tribulation [I would say "during the [7-yr] trib in its entirety, not just during the GREAT tribulation (i.e. 2nd half, merely)]. Believingly they will acknowledge His righteous judgment and express their faith and hope in His mercy and the promised blessings and restoration. They express what their great prophet Moses so beautifully stated in His prophetic song, that great vision given to him, ere he went to the mountain to die. “See now that I, even I, am He and there is no god with Me; I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; neither is there any that can deliver out of My hand” Deuteronomy 32:39. “After two days will He revive us; on the third day He will raise us up, and we shall live in His sight (literally, before His face).” They have been dead spiritually and nationally, but when the two days of their blindness and dispersion are over, there is coming for them the third day of life and [what is *LIKENED UNTO a] resurrection."
--Gaebelein, Commentary on Hosea 5 (taken from Bible Hub)
[end quoting Gaebelein; bold and underline mine; bracketed insertions mine, parentheses original]
____________
[note the passages I've listed before that *LIKEN this UNTO a RESURRECTION ^ (re: Israel's "FUTURE"): Romans 11:15(25-29); Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23; Isaiah 26:16-21; Daniel 12:1-4,10; John 6:39 (distinct from v.40); Hosea 5:14-6:3 "after TWO days" and "IN the THIRD day"... which is "THE LAST" of these three (counting from His resurrection/ascension [32ad], per Hos5:15), or "THE LAST" of seven (if you count from creation/Genesis 1, i.e. the "sabbatismos" of Heb4:9 (see Ex31:13,17 "it [the sabbath/7th day] is A SIGN between Me and the children of Israel for ever"), aka the Millennial Day of REST, that is, the 7th Millennium, or "THE LAST")]
I believe it is a big mistake to view the phrase "The Last Day" to be referring to "a singular 24-hr day"
[end quoting old post]
____________
Again... it is not the general thought to say they come to faith "AFTER HE RETURNS" (no).
My posts are not always for the sole purpose of debate. = )
Sometimes I find a singular line of thought in someone's post (that happens to be a commonly misunderstood point) and I address that singular point alone.
(In "journeyman's" post, I highlighted that phrase... the one I was addressing for the sake of the readers who have also been misled to incorrectly believe such a thing [that this is the stance/position/teachings of "Premill and/or Pre-trib"--whereas it is not].)
Sometimes I find a singular line of thought in someone's post (that happens to be a commonly misunderstood point) and I address that singular point alone.
(In "journeyman's" post, I highlighted that phrase... the one I was addressing for the sake of the readers who have also been misled to incorrectly believe such a thing [that this is the stance/position/teachings of "Premill and/or Pre-trib"--whereas it is not].)
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You meant those two you asked him a few posts above? He seems to be offline but I am sure he will answer them in due time at least I hope so.
Honestly as for whether he is a Jehova witness I don't think he is but those guys need help for sure I was coming into the garage one day and my buddy was kind of caught by one and his daughter and he saw me and was like hey Blain would love to talk about this stuff with you and threw me under the bus.
The guy talked about how they get to heaven it is a literal ladder climb throwing others under so you can make it and when I asked him about his five year old daughter he said hopefully she makes it.
I was like what!?
Honestly as for whether he is a Jehova witness I don't think he is but those guys need help for sure I was coming into the garage one day and my buddy was kind of caught by one and his daughter and he saw me and was like hey Blain would love to talk about this stuff with you and threw me under the bus.
The guy talked about how they get to heaven it is a literal ladder climb throwing others under so you can make it and when I asked him about his five year old daughter he said hopefully she makes it.
I was like what!?
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They have a system of WORKS, they actually keep track of hours out in the field, if you are under I believe 40hrs a month your a (Publisher) over is a (Pioneer)
Its thoughtful this system of works, that the JW will attain to the chosen 144,000 that they believe will serve at the throne of God.
The cultists much deeper than that, its divided more families than you can imagine
If a spouse dosent convert to the JWs after one spouse has become one,its in the 2-3 year realm that divorce is in the future.
Evil Org!
Its thoughtful this system of works, that the JW will attain to the chosen 144,000 that they believe will serve at the throne of God.
The cultists much deeper than that, its divided more families than you can imagine
If a spouse dosent convert to the JWs after one spouse has become one,its in the 2-3 year realm that divorce is in the future.
Evil Org!
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The inner workings are kept secret from the unaware prey, looks good on the outside, evil on the inside, public image.
The cults are a spider's web of deception.
The prosperity gospel is a big evil in the world, look at what it's done in Africa, Nigeria is a prime example
So called pastors living in luxury homes, jets, cars, multi million dollar paychecks, as people under their control are starving, in the name of Jesus, a 3rd world country?
(EVIL)
The cults are a spider's web of deception.
The prosperity gospel is a big evil in the world, look at what it's done in Africa, Nigeria is a prime example
So called pastors living in luxury homes, jets, cars, multi million dollar paychecks, as people under their control are starving, in the name of Jesus, a 3rd world country?
(EVIL)