Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"
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They were killed so God is not mocked (God will be glorified) their privilege of life was revoked.
Consider a similar situation in the OT.
Leviticus 10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.
2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.
3 Then Moses said unto Aaron, This is it that the LORD spake, saying, I will be sanctified in them that come nigh me, and before all the people I will be glorified. And Aaron held his peace.
We don't actually know whether A. and S. were forgiven for their sin, or not. This depends on whether they were regenerated or not. Chastisement MIGHT be as severe as death, which opens this possibility. Just because someone repented doesn't necessarily mean God will spare their life and avert consequence of their sin, although if they honestly repented from their heart and acted upon a weakness it will be accepted. We don't know if they practiced swindling and greed, and never even repented, or they momentarily succumbed to a weakness. Definitely it was a most severe offense, and their life was taken for the reason so God would not be mocked and His name was glorified before the people.
Consider a similar situation in the OT.
Leviticus 10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.
2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.
3 Then Moses said unto Aaron, This is it that the LORD spake, saying, I will be sanctified in them that come nigh me, and before all the people I will be glorified. And Aaron held his peace.
We don't actually know whether A. and S. were forgiven for their sin, or not. This depends on whether they were regenerated or not. Chastisement MIGHT be as severe as death, which opens this possibility. Just because someone repented doesn't necessarily mean God will spare their life and avert consequence of their sin, although if they honestly repented from their heart and acted upon a weakness it will be accepted. We don't know if they practiced swindling and greed, and never even repented, or they momentarily succumbed to a weakness. Definitely it was a most severe offense, and their life was taken for the reason so God would not be mocked and His name was glorified before the people.
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“Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;”
Romans 3:25 KJV
the past is forgiven . if we repent and follow the spirit our future is forgiven
the spirit says to believers
“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
Matthew 6:14-15 KJV
“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.”
Romans 8:1-2 KJV
the spirit preached the gospel we have to follow the spirit in order for our future to be secure
Romans 3:25 KJV
the past is forgiven . if we repent and follow the spirit our future is forgiven
the spirit says to believers
“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
Matthew 6:14-15 KJV
“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.”
Romans 8:1-2 KJV
the spirit preached the gospel we have to follow the spirit in order for our future to be secure
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You have missed my point.
If the lie they told was forgiven, never to be remembered against them anymore God could not have justly punished them for it.
Surely you are not suggesting that someone died with Satan in their heart....lying to the Holy Ghost and went to heaven??
We do know where Ananias and sapphire went the bible tells us:
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 21:8
If the lie they told was forgiven, never to be remembered against them anymore God could not have justly punished them for it.
Surely you are not suggesting that someone died with Satan in their heart....lying to the Holy Ghost and went to heaven??
We do know where Ananias and sapphire went the bible tells us:
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 21:8
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Paul gets credited with some strange doctrines apart from truth but he taught the truth also
“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”
Acts 17:30-31 KJV
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;....
2 Corinthians 5:10-11 KJV
“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 KJV
“Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.”
Romans 2:4-11 KJV
so we have the law of liberty
“So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy;
and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”
James 2:12-13 KJV
Blessed are the merciful they will receive mercy
“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”
Acts 17:30-31 KJV
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;....
2 Corinthians 5:10-11 KJV
“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 KJV
“Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.”
Romans 2:4-11 KJV
so we have the law of liberty
“So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy;
and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”
James 2:12-13 KJV
Blessed are the merciful they will receive mercy
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There is no comparison here with David.....Davids sins was behind Him and when Nathan showed him he gave us psalms 51 repenting.....
Ananais and sapphire on the other hand according to you had their sins forgiven before they ever lied. (Justified means just as if it never happened)
How could a just God punish someone for doing nothing. If the lying to the Holy Ghost was forgiven at the cross when they Lied God immediately forgot about.
Ananais and sapphire on the other hand according to you had their sins forgiven before they ever lied. (Justified means just as if it never happened)
How could a just God punish someone for doing nothing. If the lying to the Holy Ghost was forgiven at the cross when they Lied God immediately forgot about.
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amen brother .
I think God speaks from foreknowledge , he knows what men will choose beforehand seeing our hearts and spirit . But that doesn’t mean he determines what we choose.
He has been telling us the truth since Adam and Satan has been lying to us since eve .
“And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
Genesis 2:16-17 KJV
“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
Deuteronomy 30:19 KJV
man has always chosen death in rejecting Gods word of life
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.”
John 5:24-25 KJV
It’s never changed since Adam if man will hear Gods word and believe and therefore walk in that faith of his word we will live . But when Satan comes telling us “ that’s not true , he doesn’t really Mean that , listen to my word about life instead , I’ll tell you the real truth “ we’re going to die by his words
“What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.”
Romans 6:15-18, 21-22
I think God speaks from foreknowledge , he knows what men will choose beforehand seeing our hearts and spirit . But that doesn’t mean he determines what we choose.
He has been telling us the truth since Adam and Satan has been lying to us since eve .
“And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
Genesis 2:16-17 KJV
“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
Deuteronomy 30:19 KJV
man has always chosen death in rejecting Gods word of life
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.”
John 5:24-25 KJV
It’s never changed since Adam if man will hear Gods word and believe and therefore walk in that faith of his word we will live . But when Satan comes telling us “ that’s not true , he doesn’t really Mean that , listen to my word about life instead , I’ll tell you the real truth “ we’re going to die by his words
“What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.”
Romans 6:15-18, 21-22
First, the Bible never states that Ananias and Sapphira were believers. There is absolutely no evidence in the passage that shows they were. In fact, it says the evil deed they conceived came from their hearts, and that Satan filled their hearts. That is impossible for believers because the Bible says believers are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, and the Spirit is not going to allow Satan to fill our hearts. Only unbelievers can have their hearts indwelt by Satan. Just like Satan indwelt the heart of Judas.
Also, it doesn't actually say God killed them. It simply says they "fell dead". To say God killed them for lying is akin to saying that, like Jonah, disobedient believers will be swallowed by a whale. Yes, Ananias and Sapphira lied about money and fell dead. But many people lie about money, even churchgoers. If God were killing churchgoers who lie about money, Sunday morning services all over the world would be littered with corpses.
Remember that telling a single lie, lusting, stealing, hatred, blasphemy etc. are all sins that incur the death penalty. The wages of sin is death. Jesus died. He paid the wages. There are no wages left! So, God is not killing believers for their sins. Jesus's sacrifice was enough - for ALL sins.
Also, it doesn't actually say God killed them. It simply says they "fell dead". To say God killed them for lying is akin to saying that, like Jonah, disobedient believers will be swallowed by a whale. Yes, Ananias and Sapphira lied about money and fell dead. But many people lie about money, even churchgoers. If God were killing churchgoers who lie about money, Sunday morning services all over the world would be littered with corpses.
Remember that telling a single lie, lusting, stealing, hatred, blasphemy etc. are all sins that incur the death penalty. The wages of sin is death. Jesus died. He paid the wages. There are no wages left! So, God is not killing believers for their sins. Jesus's sacrifice was enough - for ALL sins.
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God can still chastise us inspite of our sins being dealt with and paid for . Paying the penalty for our sins is one thing. Suffering the consequences of sinning is another . If we cheat on our wives, steal from work , and do drugs, we will suffer the consequences inspite . The penalty has been paid however .
The Bible doesn’t say Satan can’t tempt believers that’s ridiculous the first thing Jesus did when he received the spirit he was led by the spirit to be tempted of the devil to think receiving the Holy Spirit is guaranteed salvation should be pretty clearly refuted right here
“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”
Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV
it doesn’t say it’s impossible for them to fall Away it says if they do that after receiving the Holy Ghost it’s impossible to bring them back again
“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”
Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV
it doesn’t say it’s impossible for them to fall Away it says if they do that after receiving the Holy Ghost it’s impossible to bring them back again
It doesn't say they were tempted, it said Satan filled their hearts - the same way he filled the heart of Judas. And Hebrews isn't taking about born again believers, it's talking about Jews (Hence the book being called "Hebrews") who came close to accepting Jesus, (they "tasted") but decided to go back to the Temple sacrificial system. To do so means they could never repent and be saved - through that system!
My goodness, where do you get your theology - a cereal box?