A Divided Church?

[WalkerAllan]

What is the body of Christ?

All redeemed or speaking of the local church body?

Wattie: I think that Paul has described the makeup and the functioning of the Body of Christ (the body of all redeemed children of God) in some detail in 1 Corinthians 12:12-27 and Romans 12:4-5.
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. (1 Corinthians 12:27, NIV)

He uses this analogy to impress upon us that all born-again Christians have a unique part to play as the Lord brings his purpose to fulfillment.
For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. (Romans 12:4‑5, NIV)

Further he emphasises the fact that the part that each of us play is of equal importance to the fulfillment of his plan for the Body. In other words there is no more honour given to any one function above another.
The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and the parts that we think are less honourable we treat with special honour. (1 Corinthians 12:21-23, NIV)

He is also saying that this is the basis of unity within the Body of Christ.
But God has put the body together, giving greater honour to the parts that lacked it, so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honoured, every part rejoices with it. (1 Corinthians 12:24-26, NIV)

I trust that this answers at least some of your questions.

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬​

 

[pottersclay]

y

Great response. I wish I had noticed this post before writing my unnecessarily long essay lol you said it so well and without miles of text!

Nonsense your response was informative.

 

[WalkerAllan]

How the churches have come to where they are is quite simple. Any human organisation eventually becomes an end in itself. There are salaries to pay, buildings and priceless art collections to maintain, appearances to keep up and careers to promote. Those in leadership are human beings just like you and me and they feel the pressure that is generated by such organisations. Eventually the church members become a means to the end rather than the end in itself. Big congregations and impressive programs become a necessity because of the revenue they generate. The pressure is on the most sincere among us to lose sight of the one and only purpose of the church which is to shepherd each and every child of God in its care to a state of full maturity in Christ.

He is the one we proclaim, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone fully mature in Christ. To this end I strenuously contend with all the energy Christ so powerfully works in me. (Colossians 1:28‑29, NIV)

Sadly, I have found few in traditional church structures who have this need at the forefront of their mind. There just isn’t the time to give it much more than lip-service.

As a result, the traditional churches and their modern counterparts, the “mega-churches,” have failed to fulfill their obligations in this regard. They have tried to fill this void with anything from meaningless religious ceremonies to rock concerts.

Many sincere church members remain bowed down with feelings of unfulfillment in their relationship with God. The institutional churches have promised them much and delivered very little. Many feel obliged to act a part in which they are desperately trying to convince themselves and those around them that they are experiencing something from God that they are not.

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬​

 

[cv5]

How the churches have come to where they are is quite simple. Any human organisation eventually becomes an end in itself. There are salaries to pay, buildings and priceless art collections to maintain, appearances to keep up and careers to promote. Those in leadership are human beings just like you and me and they feel the pressure that is generated by such organisations. Eventually the church members become a means to the end rather than the end in itself. Big congregations and impressive programs become a necessity because of the revenue they generate. The pressure is on the most sincere among us to lose sight of the one and only purpose of the church which is to shepherd each and every child of God in its care to a state of full maturity in Christ.

He is the one we proclaim, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone fully mature in Christ. To this end I strenuously contend with all the energy Christ so powerfully works in me. (Colossians 1:28‑29, NIV)

Sadly, I have found few in traditional church structures who have this need at the forefront of their mind. There just isn’t the time to give it much more than lip-service.

As a result, the traditional churches and their modern counterparts, the “mega-churches,” have failed to fulfill their obligations in this regard. They have tried to fill this void with anything from meaningless religious ceremonies to rock concerts.

Many sincere church members remain bowed down with feelings of unfulfillment in their relationship with God. The institutional churches have promised them much and delivered very little. Many feel obliged to act a part in which they are desperately trying to convince themselves and those around them that they are experiencing something from God that they are not.

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬​

Amen brother. The real problem is that everyone recognizes the hypocrisy, the abandonment of the mandate, the failure to discharge their duties, the lust for lucre and position and power.

But no one has the courage to speak up and talk about it. Openly. It's just incredible.

I remember one incident at my former little congregation. A supposedly missionary (Africa...Congo) was doing his song and dance in front of the membership. All and I mean ALL he talked about was revenue money money cost expenditures spending money we need revenue....money money money we need more money. It was so awful that he was begging for money for.....soccer uniforms! I did not like what I was hearing of course.

So I stood up and asked this man in front of the entire congregation why is it that you're not speaking to us about all of souls that are being saved? Why aren't you telling about us about how you are successfully bringing people to Christ?

This person was shocked and silenced. He had no response he had no reply he was non-plussed.

The addendum: Evidently there are now three young ladies at their "church school" there in the Congo who are now knocked up and pregnant without a husband.

Of course they need more money to solve this problem....

One other point I happen to intersect this person at a church social function. And I can tell you that the alarm bells are ringing the sirens going off in my mind that this guy was a fake and a fraud.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Totally agree. I am leaving the Church I was attending. Trying to discuss the Bible, Scriptures, God, edifying commentary about doctrine or anything of the sort after the sermon was like pulling teeth. In fact people would go away way out of their way to avoid......completely avoid any discussion about the Bible. There would not be any discussion about the sermon for pity's sake.

The whole scenario was so strained, so unnatural it was spooky. I discovered the main problem that being that most people at this Church including the pastor and his assistant are amillennialists. I am quite the prophecy buff and they want absolutely no part of it. After all who needs prophecy if Christ is never going to return? Or if he already has returned in 70ad?

If we look at the history of Israel and the history of the Church, I think we will se a resemblance, Israel started in a relational way, focus was on learning and interpersonal relationship with family neighbors and God (not in that order) the same with the church

it did not take long for factions to be brought in however, you not only had your national split, but the Jewish church was split, ceremony and tradition quickly took over, paganistic traditions and practices soon were. Iced in and what was started as gods church to represent god to the gentiles became a broken sinful nation which got so bad it failed to do what it was supposed to do, be a witness to the world, even after a reformation to origional values after they were restored to Jerusalem, it too did not last long and in the time of Christ, like most of the time, the true church was few, even the prophets, which were shunned by Israel for centuries, had been done away with (it was quite for 400 years) the fact is, the true church in that time was few, and they were shunned even by the religious leaders

sounds just like the NT church

 

[cv5]

If we look at the history of Israel and the history of the Church, I think we will se a resemblance, Israel started in a relational way, focus was on learning and interpersonal relationship with family neighbors and God (not in that order) the same with the church

it did not take long for factions to be brought in however, you not only had your national split, but the Jewish church was split, ceremony and tradition quickly took over, paganistic traditions and practices soon were. Iced in and what was started as gods church to represent god to the gentiles became a broken sinful nation which got so bad it failed to do what it was supposed to do, be a witness to the world, even after a reformation to origional values after they were restored to Jerusalem, it too did not last long and in the time of Christ, like most of the time, the true church was few, even the prophets, which were shunned by Israel for centuries, had been done away with (it was quite for 400 years) the fact is, the true church in that time was few, and they were shunned even by the religious leaders

sounds just like the NT church

For me that is strangely edifying and confidence building.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

A DIVIDED CHURCH?​

I have never felt that the church has been divided. Rather, I believe that the divisions which have occurred are within the denominational church structures which have erroneously been viewed as being “the church.” These actually are organisational structures which have, over the centuries, been built by ecclesiastical leaders (rather successfully as it happens) in an effort to establish and consolidate their own power and influence on the earth. In so doing they have been able to pursue their own agenda without reference to the purpose of God in Redemption or in the lives of His children.

Moreover, I believe that it is God who is the author of the divisions which have occurred within these man-made structures having, at various times in history, torn those structures asunder so that the worldly power and authority at the centres of their power will not exceed certain limits.

The analogy given by Scripture is found in the Old Testament account of the tower of Babel.
Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.” (Genesis 11:4, NIV)
The LORD said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.” (Genesis 11:6‑7, NIV)

Mankind, who at the time had a common language, started to build a city with a large tower that would establish their power and influence on the earth, independently of the purpose of God in creation. God then brought division among them by confounding their languages. If he had not done this then men would have done what they liked with the world bypassing the Eternal Purpose of God.

In the same way and for the same reasons God has brought division into the established churches, confounding their languages (doctrine and practices) and thus allowing for suspicion and mistrust to arise between them in a manner analogous to what has happened to the nations of the world.

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
​

False teachers abound. It is the abundance of false teaching that have created so many denominations. How does one cut through all this?

God's Word make it clear for us there are two paths. Christ and Antichrist.

John 19:11-16
11 Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”
12 From then on, Pilate tried to set Jesus free, but the Jewish leaders kept shouting, “If you let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar. Anyone who claims to be a king opposes Caesar.”
13 When Pilate heard this, he brought Jesus out and sat down on the judge’s seat at a place known as the Stone Pavement (which in Aramaic is Gabbatha). 14 It was the day of Preparation of the Passover; it was about noon.
“Here is your king,” Pilate said to the Jews.
15 But they shouted, “Take him away! Take him away! Crucify him!”
“Shall I crucify your king?” Pilate asked.
“We have no king but Caesar,” the chief priests answered.
16 Finally Pilate handed him over to them to be crucified.

The antichrist is in the world today. He has been here since the time of Jesus. The Jewish leaders in the time of Jesus had two choice: to choice the Christ or the Antichrist. They chose the Antichrist, which at that time was the Roman Emperor..

1 John 4:3 makes it clear.
3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus [risen from the dead in the flesh] is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

the antichrist has been in the world since 1st century AD.

anyone who says different has either been deceived or is a deceiver.

There is two choices:
1) true christianity which is fully and completely separated from the antichrist.
2) And there is false christianity which is not fully and completely separated from the antichrist.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

​

In the same way and for the same reasons God has brought division into the established churches, confounding their languages (doctrine and practices) and thus allowing for suspicion and mistrust to arise between them in a manner analogous to what has happened to the nations of the world.

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
​

what you say is patently false. It is the spirit of the antichrist that does this.

 

[WalkerAllan]

what you say is patently false. It is the spirit of the antichrist that does this.

But Satan must have God's permission.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

But Satan must have God's permission.

Satan is permitted. Different than to say that God himself commits the sins.

God gives all a choice.

 

[WalkerAllan]

Satan is permitted. Different than to say that God himself commits the sins.

God gives all a choice.

At this point we agree.

 

[mustaphadrink]

A DIVIDED CHURCH?​

I have never felt that the church has been divided. Rather, I believe that the divisions which have occurred are within the denominational church structures which have erroneously been viewed as being “the church.” These actually are organisational structures which have, over the centuries, been built by ecclesiastical leaders (rather successfully as it happens) in an effort to establish and consolidate their own power and influence on the earth. In so doing they have been able to pursue their own agenda without reference to the purpose of God in Redemption or in the lives of His children.

Moreover, I believe that it is God who is the author of the divisions which have occurred within these man-made structures having, at various times in history, torn those structures asunder so that the worldly power and authority at the centres of their power will not exceed certain limits.

The analogy given by Scripture is found in the Old Testament account of the tower of Babel.
Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.” (Genesis 11:4, NIV)
The LORD said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.” (Genesis 11:6‑7, NIV)

Mankind, who at the time had a common language, started to build a city with a large tower that would establish their power and influence on the earth, independently of the purpose of God in creation. God then brought division among them by confounding their languages. If he had not done this then men would have done what they liked with the world bypassing the Eternal Purpose of God.

In the same way and for the same reasons God has brought division into the established churches, confounding their languages (doctrine and practices) and thus allowing for suspicion and mistrust to arise between them in a manner analogous to what has happened to the nations of the world.

Interesting thought.

 

[mustaphadrink]

Walker deception is everywhere, right before a person's face, and they are unaware.

Try reading Matthew 17:21, Matthew 18:11, Acts 8:37, Roman's 16:24 in the NIV you quote?

Psalm 15:6-8KJV
6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
8 The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.

Walker deception is everywhere, right before a person's face, and they are unaware.

Ever heard of a thing called GRACE?

 

[mustaphadrink]

I believe that the scriptures teach that there has always been a division in the church which is made up of God's elect. Ezekiel 1:16, and their appearance and their work was as if it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel.

Both wheels are regenerated believers in God, and worship him in Spirit. The larger outer wheel are those who worship God, but have not been revealed, by the Holy Ghost, the doctrine that Jesus taught. and are referred to as regenerated babes in Christ These make up the many denominations that came into existence in the reformation period of the 1500's. The original church (the inner, smaller wheel) that Jesus set up was never a part of the Roman catholic church which tried to eliminate the church that Jesus set up, in which, Paul, who was then Saul, played a role in persecuting the church.

Ezek 1:16, I believe, harmonizes with Matt 7, the larger wheel being the wide gate, which is the invisible church, and the smaller wheel, being the straight gate, which is the visible church.

The visible church has always been recognised as, the few, the remnant, the 144,000, whos congregations have always been much smaller as compared to the denominations.

The invisible church tend to believe that there will be but a few in heaven, due to their misunderstanding of the division of the visible, and invisible church.

The invisible church are still babes in Christ sustaining themselves on the milk of the word, without having the knowledge of the doctrine of Jesus Christ contained in the gospel.

Isaiah 28:9-10, Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, and there a little.

Two things. the 144,000 are Jews and have nothing to do with the church. And two, if the invisible church is babes in Christ, how do you know if they are invisible?

 

[mustaphadrink]

How could we unite with something that isn't of God?

I have been studying the church as it was before Constantine. They were united under Christ and held fast to all the apostles taught, but very flexible about members beliefs other than Christ. But even then men entered the church with their own ideas instead of God's ways.

Constantine really changed the church with his idea that any questions could be answered with a church council instead of the apostles. He said the Holy Spirit led them so they could make any changes, just say it was from the Holy Spirit.

Perhaps it is impossible for us to unite.

The true church will unite. The imposter will not.

 

[Blik]

Constantine created the State Church that is now Roman Catholicism

He donated the land and built St. Peter's Basilica,what is now Vatican City.

The Early Church had nothing to do with Constatine.

A prime example is the 1st Nicene Council in 321AD, 1800 bishops were invited by Constatine, all expenses for travel and accommodations, only 318 showed up.

Constatine and his High Priest Eusebius persecuted the early Church.

Constantine so changed the church that studies of church history tell of history before and after the Nicene Council. It was the great divide.

 

[Truth7t7]

Constantine so changed the church that studies of church history tell of history before and after the Nicene Council. It was the great divide.

I agree, Constatine founded the (State Church) his high priest (Eusebius) was his religious authority, and Constatine carried out civil judgement, banishment being one example, at the words of Eusebius.

The Russian Orthodox would be a prime example of this (State Church) today

The early Church fathers wanted nothing to do with Constatine, and his newly built church in Rome St Petersburg, on land that he donated, what is now Vatican City, in Roman Catholocism

 

[Truth7t7]

Uh

Two things. the 144,000 are Jews and have nothing to do with the church.

Your claim is (False)

The 144,000 are the remnant Jews that have received Jesus Christ and been (Added) to the Church present on earth (Christians), they are preaching the (Everlasting Gospel) in the death, burial, resurrection, and salvation in Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:4-7KJV
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

 

[mustaphadrink]

Uh
Your claim is (False)

The 144,000 are the remnant Jews that have received Jesus Christ and been (Added) to the Church present on earth (Christians), they are preaching the (Everlasting Gospel) in the death, burial, resurrection, and salvation in Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:4-7KJV
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Your claim is false.

 

[Truth7t7]

Your claim is false.

You stated the redeemed Jews below, preaching the everlasting gospel on earth aren't part the Church?

Your claim is 100% False

The 144,000 are the remnant Jews that have received Jesus Christ (Redeemed) and been (Added) to the Church present on earth (Christians), they are preaching the (Everlasting Gospel) in the death, burial, resurrection, and salvation in Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:14KJV
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Revelation 14:4-7KJV
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.