"The Soul That Sinneth, It SHALL Die."

Phoneman-777 · Nov 7, 2020

Many claim this verse, and the others below, refers to a future "spiritual death" of the soul where it will spend eternity in torment.

This can't be referring to the future...why?

When the Bible speaks of "spiritual death", it puts it in the present tense, not future tense:

"She that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth." -- 1 Timothy 5:6 KJV

Clearly, spiritual death has nothing to do with the future, but with the present, and therefore the soul that resists Jesus until the end will experience a literal death, not a spiritual death BECAUSE IT IS ALREADY SPIRITUALLY DEAD.

Other texts which point to this future literal death of the soul:

"Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner...shall save a soul from death..." -- James 5:20 KJV

"...can destroy (in the future) both soul and body in hell." -- Matthew 10:28 KJV

...every living soul died in the sea." -- Revelation 16:3 KJV

"And it shall come to pass that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed..." -- Acts 3:23 KJV

Truth7t7 · Nov 7, 2020

Phoneman-777 said:

Many claim this verse, and the others below, refers to a future "spiritual death" of the soul where it will spend eternity in torment.

This can't be referring to the future...why?

When the Bible speaks of "spiritual death", it puts it in the present tense, not future tense:

"She that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth." -- 1 Timothy 5:6 KJV

Clearly, spiritual death has nothing to do with the future, but with the present, and therefore the soul that resists Jesus until the end will experience a literal death, not a spiritual death BECAUSE IT IS ALREADY SPIRITUALLY DEAD.

Other texts which point to this future literal death of the soul:

"Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner...shall save a soul from death..." -- James 5:20 KJV

"...can destroy (in the future) both soul and body in hell." -- Matthew 10:28 KJV

...every living soul died in the sea." -- Revelation 16:3 KJV

"And it shall come to pass that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed..." -- Acts 3:23 KJV

Do you believe in (Soul Sleep) of the wicked, after their death?

throughfaith · Nov 7, 2020

Phoneman-777 said:

Many claim this verse, and the others below, refers to a future "spiritual death" of the soul where it will spend eternity in torment.

This can't be referring to the future...why?

When the Bible speaks of "spiritual death", it puts it in the present tense, not future tense:

"She that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth." -- 1 Timothy 5:6 KJV

Clearly, spiritual death has nothing to do with the future, but with the present, and therefore the soul that resists Jesus until the end will experience a literal death, not a spiritual death BECAUSE IT IS ALREADY SPIRITUALLY DEAD.

Other texts which point to this future literal death of the soul:

"Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner...shall save a soul from death..." -- James 5:20 KJV

"...can destroy (in the future) both soul and body in hell." -- Matthew 10:28 KJV

...every living soul died in the sea." -- Revelation 16:3 KJV

"And it shall come to pass that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed..." -- Acts 3:23 KJV

Yup . There's plenty of places where it just means physical death . " He who endures to the end ...ect

Dino246 · Nov 7, 2020

Phoneman-777 said:

Many claim this verse, and the others below, refers to a future "spiritual death" of the soul where it will spend eternity in torment.

This can't be referring to the future...why?

When the Bible speaks of "spiritual death", it puts it in the present tense, not future tense:

"She that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth." -- 1 Timothy 5:6 KJV

Clearly, spiritual death has nothing to do with the future, but with the present, and therefore the soul that resists Jesus until the end will experience a literal death, not a spiritual death BECAUSE IT IS ALREADY SPIRITUALLY DEAD.

Other texts which point to this future literal death of the soul:

"Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner...shall save a soul from death..." -- James 5:20 KJV

"...can destroy (in the future) both soul and body in hell." -- Matthew 10:28 KJV

...every living soul died in the sea." -- Revelation 16:3 KJV

"And it shall come to pass that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed..." -- Acts 3:23 KJV

The verse in the title has nothing whatsoever to do with the nature of death. Rather, it is stating death as a certain consequence of sin, limited to the offender and not extended to his or her descendants.

Blain · Nov 7, 2020

Phoneman-777 said:

Many claim this verse, and the others below, refers to a future "spiritual death" of the soul where it will spend eternity in torment.

This can't be referring to the future...why?

When the Bible speaks of "spiritual death", it puts it in the present tense, not future tense:

"She that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth." -- 1 Timothy 5:6 KJV

Clearly, spiritual death has nothing to do with the future, but with the present, and therefore the soul that resists Jesus until the end will experience a literal death, not a spiritual death BECAUSE IT IS ALREADY SPIRITUALLY DEAD.

Other texts which point to this future literal death of the soul:

"Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner...shall save a soul from death..." -- James 5:20 KJV

"...can destroy (in the future) both soul and body in hell." -- Matthew 10:28 KJV

...every living soul died in the sea." -- Revelation 16:3 KJV

"And it shall come to pass that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed..." -- Acts 3:23 KJV

I haven't heard of people doing this in this way I think the second death spoken of in revelation defines this spiritual death

Corban · Nov 7, 2020

Phoneman-777 said:

According to Genesis 2:7 and 1st Thessalonians 5:23 many is made of three distinct parts. Body of dust, a human spirit and a soul. Since man is the Temple of God, these three speak for the three parts of the Temple; (i) the body - the Outer Court, (ii) the Holy Place - the soul, and (iii) the Holy of Holies - the human spirit. They are each furnished with their own "life", (i) "bios" for the body, (ii) "psuché" for the soul, and (iii) "zoe" for the spirit. At human death, the body returns to dust, or the earth, the soul goes to Hades under the earth, and the human spirit returns to God (Eccl.3:19.21, 12:7). From Genesis 2:7 onward, man is regarded as, and called, "A SOUL". When our Lord died He said that HE (Jesus) would go to the "heart of the earth" - and did (Matt,12:40, Eph.4:8-9). Were His SOUL was, He was.

There is not a single mention, or even allusion to a spirit dying in the whole Bible. Angels are spirits and they cannot die. To make the claim that a man dies spiritually is to presuppose that he had spiritual life before this. This is also not the case because Adam had not yet eaten from the Tree of Life.
The death of the body is when the spirit leaves it (Jas.2:26). The body ceases to function and returns to the elements.
The death of the soul is called "perdition". Greek scholars all agree that the word in Greek that we render "perdition" indicates a "exquisite lack of well-being" (e.g. Vine). It does not mean cessation of function like the body in death. It means "Acute Psychological Suffering". Our Lord Himself attests to this as He suffered in Gethsemane. He said; "My SOUL is sorrowful UNTO DEATH". Matthew 10:28 incorporates bodily pain and soulish pain in the threat of Gehenna, or the Lake of Fire. That is, the soul cannot escape sensation.

The term "dead IN pleasures", or "dead IN sins" focuses on the word "IN". It is best explained by 1st Corinthians 15:22 - "All IN Adam die". You and I WILL die (as we are still alive now), but God reckons ALL men to have been in Adam's LOINS. When Adam ate from the deadly Tree, something happened to his SEED, and death was the portion of every man thereafter (Rom.5:12), according to the Law of SEEDS in Genesis 1:11-12. So although you and I are alive, we are reckoned as IN Adam's loins and dead already. This application applies to SINS, and it applies to Christ. He NOW sits in heaven, so God reckons us, who proceed out of Christ, to be where Christ is (Eph.1:3, 20). This again is down to the Law of SEEDS in John.12:24. That is why, in 1st Timothy 5:6 a person can be dead while alive. They are in the LOINS of pleasure and this kind of pleasure ends in death every time.

Phoneman-777 · Nov 8, 2020

Truth7t7 said:

Several versions of "soul sleep" are out there. This much we know: Genesis 2:7 KJV without question says a "Soul" comes into existence as a consequence of the union of the Breath of Life and the Body. Therefore, the only reasonable understanding regarding how death affect the Soul, whether of the righteous, wicked, or any creature, is this:

The instant the Breath of Life is withdrawn from the Body (which immediately begins to decay into dust of the ground) the Soul ceases to exist -- until the one or the other of the two resurrections --- just as light ceases to exist when electric current is withdrawn from the bulb.

"Sleep" is just a euphemism for "death" but because we associate "sleep" with a living state of being, it clouds our understanding of what death truly is: an extinction of being. So, why does the Bible associate "sleep" with "death"? Because, for God, death is merely a long, silent sleep until the resurrection, where we either are alive again forevermore, or "sleep a perpetual sleep and not wake" which at that time will be the Second Death, an eternal death, a death from which there will be no resurrection.

Phoneman-777 · Nov 8, 2020

Dino246 said:

Blain said:

So, we're going to just ignore the fact that when the Bible speaks of "spiritual death", it puts it in the present tense?

"But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth." 1 Timothy 5:6 KJV

A wicked Soul presently suffers "spiritually death". Therefore, the future death aka "Second Death" which awaits the impenitent Soul cannot possibly be the same "spiritual death" of which it now suffers....it can only and does only refer to the literal death of the Soul, the destruction of the Soul, the extinction of being of the Soul, and certainly not the "maintaining an everlasting but wretched existence" of the Soul.

Phoneman-777 · Nov 8, 2020

Corban said:

That is a distortion of the text. It does NOT say one of man's components is a soul, or that man was given a soul, but that man BECAME a Soul which means that man IS a Soul...a Soul comprised of the two distinct parts, the Body and the Breath of Life, which begins to exist as a consequence of the union of these two parts. In the Hebrew, it literally says, "...and dust of the ground BECAME a living soul."

When Paul says he wants our whole Spirit and Soul and Body preserved, he's not referring to three distinct parts because Paul knew Genesis 2:7 plainly says that the living Soul comes into existence as a consequence of the union of two distinct parts, the Body and the Breath of Life.

So, what does Paul mean?

I remember in boot camp when our CC yelled, "I want the floor, the ceiling, the walls, this entire building spotless for inspection tomorrow!" Did he intend "this entire building" to be a DISTINCT PART of the structure? Of course not - he was just saying he wanted all the parts and the entire whole clean.

Likewise, Paul is just saying he wants the parts, the Body and Spirit as well as the entire whole, the Soul, preserved.

Corban · Nov 8, 2020

Phoneman-777 said:

No my brother. The union of TWO things CREATED a third. That is the grammar of Genesis 2:7. My one example you left unanswered. At the death of our Lord Jesus, "Who took the form of a MAN", His BODY was placed in a sepulcher, His SPIRIT was given UP to His Father, but HE went to the heart of the earth. Of this event, Acts Chapter 2:27 and 31 tell us that God, "... will not leave my SOUL in HADES". This echoes Psalm 16:10. And in His retributive punishment on men in Matthew 10:28 the body and soul are joined by the conjunction "and". The conjunction "AND", we are told by language scholars, is copulative, cumulative and sequential. "The bread AND the butter" - two different things.

Pilgrimshope · Nov 8, 2020

Phoneman-777 said:

yes mankind is under a sentence of death . God speaks as though things already are even if they are in the future , but I agree with your idea here that all man is already dead spiritually It’s why Jesus spoke as he did here

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭

speaking as though they are passing from death into life . He points to now and future

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:25, 28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we can be made alive now by accepting his judgement and not have to go to the grave with our flesh , or we can go to the grave with the flesh we served and awake the last day and face judgement , and the second death .

now or later we have the judgement set out before us in the gospel to believe and be saved

Truth7t7 · Nov 8, 2020

Phoneman-777 said:

Several versions of "soul sleep" are out there. This much we know: Genesis 2:7 KJV without question says a "Soul" comes into existence as a consequence of the union of the Breath of Life and the Body. Therefore, the only reasonable understanding regarding how death affect the Soul, whether of the righteous, wicked, or any creature, is this:

The instant the Breath of Life is withdrawn from the Body (which immediately begins to decay into dust of the ground) the Soul ceases to exist -- until the one or the other of the two resurrections --- just as light ceases to exist when electric current is withdrawn from the bulb.

"Sleep" is just a euphemism for "death" but because we associate "sleep" with a living state of being, it clouds our understanding of what death truly is: an extinction of being. So, why does the Bible associate "sleep" with "death"? Because, for God, death is merely a long, silent sleep until the resurrection, where we either are alive again forevermore, or "sleep a perpetual sleep and not wake" which at that time will be the Second Death, an eternal death, a death from which there will be no resurrection.

Thanks for the response

(The Soul Ceases To Exist)?

You deny a literal place of torment upon death (Hell)

Your belief and teaching is the same as 7th Day Adventist and JW's in this denial.

FrankChatter · Nov 8, 2020

Phoneman is a 7th day dentist. Nuff said

Truth7t7 · Nov 8, 2020

FrankChatter said:

Ellen G. White can be added to the cults, right along with the JW's and Mormons in my opinion.

The investigative judgement, soul sleep, 2,000 visions of Ellen, on and on, false teachings!

Pilgrimshope · Nov 8, 2020

Truth7t7 said:

just a few scriptures to support your point

“And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground,

and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh:

yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other:

so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:

and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And as it is appointed unto men once to die,

but after this the judgment:”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:

the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:22-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But the judgement for the dead even those in hell until the judgement have to stand before the judgement seat of Christ

“And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life:

and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it;

and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:12-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:22, 24-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.”
‭‭John‬ ‭11:24-27‬ ‭

Nehemiah6 · Nov 8, 2020

Phoneman-777 said:

The present tense indicates that all human beings in their natural state are spiritually dead. Therefore the New Birth is an absolute necessity in order to enter and see the Kingdom of God (John 3).

However, "the Second Death" was also included in "The Soul That Sinneth, It SHALL Die." And we read about the Second Death in connection with the Great White Throne Judgment and the Lake of Fire (Rev 20).

Since you are SDA (to the best of my knowledge), you do not believe in an eternal Hell (the Lake of Fire). But it is a biblical fact.

Truth7t7 · Nov 8, 2020

Nehemiah6 said:

It's my understanding the SDA dosent believe in a place of torment (Hell Upon Death) they deny the example of the Rich Man (Hell) and Lazarus (Abraham's Bosom)

They believe the (Soul Sleeps)

Pilgrimshope · Nov 8, 2020

Nehemiah6 said:

“And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Truth7t7 said:

Yes I believe there are a few denominations who refuse to believe “ God would throw anyone in hell “

but hell Is a reality that Satan and mankind caused through transgression

God is trying to save us from it , but we keep as humans rejecting his ways even though he’s saying “ these things I’m teaching are eternal Life , if you don’t repent and believe Me you will surely die “

his will has always been salvation

Truth7t7 said:

believers in the ot did sleep
Until Christ came because thier spirit was bound to thier flesh so their soul slept there with thier remains.

Moses readying to die was told he would sleep with his fathers as they were in the ot , that’s one of the incomparable differences in the two covenants

Whereas The believer on the cross was told the same day he would be with Christ in paradise .

We have a spirit that can be saved now through rebirth And made alive , our flesh is condemned but we have a kingdom promise for a heavenly body for our spirit To dwell

“It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul;

the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

..And as we have borne the image of the earthy,

we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:44-45, 49-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Blain · Nov 8, 2020

Phoneman-777 said:

Well you could be right after all we are talking about a present death and a an everlasting one and we do refer ourselves to bbe once being dead but now are alive. I suppose I didn't really think about the terms being used and their actual usage
ironic for someone who places the importance of context and placement of words

Nehemiah6 · Nov 8, 2020

Truth7t7 said:

Correct. Had Ellen G. White (or whoever) carefully checked the incorrect translation of Sheol and Hades as "the grave" or "the pit" (in the KJV), when Sheol/Hades is in "the heart of the earth", or "the lower parts of the earth" (or near the core of the earth), a lot of doctrinal error could have been avoided. There are no souls sleeping in the ground six feet under the surface. There is just plain old dust, "for dust thou art, and into dust shalt thou return".

Physical death is THE SEPARATION of the soul and spirit from the body. Souls either go directly to Heaven to be with Christ, or directly to Hades to await judgment.

The Second Death is ETERNAL SEPARATION of the individual from God (in the Lake of Fire), "where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched".

"The Soul That Sinneth, It SHALL Die."

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