REFORMERS - The LIght of the New World

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GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
2,031
637
113
#1
Puritans and Pilgrims took their Geneva Bibles and sailed to religious freedom. Though they had persevered through the persecution of “Bloody Mary” and the RCC, they wanted separation from the Church of England because it had combined Reformed doctrine with Roman Catholic dogma which was not tolerable for those who treasure ‘sola scriptura’. They were once again pursued as heretics, now by the CoE just the same as “reformers” had been the target of the RCC before Queen Elizabeth finally declared a ‘unification’ of the two (Church of England and the RCC) for the sake of peace. The bible was no longer THE scripture, CoE now had an approved prayer book and approved form of worship….the Reformers once again looked for free expression of their faith in other lands.

The Pilgrims, who had gone to the Netherlands (where they found freedom of expression) were the first of the group to leave for a new country. They left because they felt their children were becoming too Dutch and leaving their English roots. The Puritans left England because they were now being persecuted by the Church of England.

They were all Calvinist in doctrine, differing from each other in that Puritans were more legalistic and Pilgrims, a sect of the Puritans, were not. Pilgrims ended up at Plymouth “rock” and Puritans were the Massachusetts Bay Colony. These immigrants were never going to compromise scripture with the leaven of the apostates. These were the bearers of light to the new world.

Not wanting an uneducated pastorate, the Reformers founded these colleges: Dartmouth, Yale, Harvard, and Princeton. (Harvard being the first) Their churches were known as Congregational or Presbyterian, depending on the type of church government they preferred. The towns and villages they founded in uncharted lands are still there today and scattered among Vermont, Connecticut, and Massachusetts.

SO….when Americans celebrate Thanksgiving, they celebrate those brave stalwarts of the faith. How many little Pilgrim/Puritan images will decorate the house? Little “calvinist” images at every table? Little reminders that though Americans have split into other groups, we are still in agreement on some of the basics: Trinity, scripture alone and Jesus Christ’s atonement. It’s a starting place. And Calvinists DO have their place at the table.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,625
13,874
113
#2
Puritans, Pilgrims, US colonial history, (American) Thanksgiving, Calvinists...

What, exactly, are you wanting to discuss?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#3
Puritans and Pilgrims took their Geneva Bibles and sailed to religious freedom. Though they had persevered through the persecution of “Bloody Mary” and the RCC, they wanted separation from the Church of England because it had combined Reformed doctrine with Roman Catholic dogma which was not tolerable for those who treasure ‘sola scriptura’. They were once again pursued as heretics, now by the CoE just the same as “reformers” had been the target of the RCC before Queen Elizabeth finally declared a ‘unification’ of the two (Church of England and the RCC) for the sake of peace. The bible was no longer THE scripture, CoE now had an approved prayer book and approved form of worship….the Reformers once again looked for free expression of their faith in other lands.

The Pilgrims, who had gone to the Netherlands (where they found freedom of expression) were the first of the group to leave for a new country. They left because they felt their children were becoming too Dutch and leaving their English roots. The Puritans left England because they were now being persecuted by the Church of England.

They were all Calvinist in doctrine, differing from each other in that Puritans were more legalistic and Pilgrims, a sect of the Puritans, were not. Pilgrims ended up at Plymouth “rock” and Puritans were the Massachusetts Bay Colony. These immigrants were never going to compromise scripture with the leaven of the apostates. These were the bearers of light to the new world.

Not wanting an uneducated pastorate, the Reformers founded these colleges: Dartmouth, Yale, Harvard, and Princeton. (Harvard being the first) Their churches were known as Congregational or Presbyterian, depending on the type of church government they preferred. The towns and villages they founded in uncharted lands are still there today and scattered among Vermont, Connecticut, and Massachusetts.

SO….when Americans celebrate Thanksgiving, they celebrate those brave stalwarts of the faith. How many little Pilgrim/Puritan images will decorate the house? Little “calvinist” images at every table? Little reminders that though Americans have split into other groups, we are still in agreement on some of the basics: Trinity, scripture alone and Jesus Christ’s atonement. It’s a starting place. And Calvinists DO have their place at the table.
None of that matters . The question is . Are the 5 points biblical. I say they are not . Not 1 point is biblical. So that's quite a problem .
 

Infinite_Ark

Active member
Sep 19, 2020
165
71
28
#4
Has anyone actually followed the real words of Christ that he himself delivered to people?
People in power are responsible for the words people read today as those of God. How many really know what Jesus actually said?
 

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
2,031
637
113
#6
None of that matters . The question is . Are the 5 points biblical. I say they are not . Not 1 point is biblical. So that's quite a problem .
I don't think you know what the 5 points are.

T original sin and its effect on the human race.
U God does not save because of His foreknowlege or our works, but because His sovereign choice
L the atonement was for the believer, not everyone who does not believe
I Non can resist the will of God
p once saved, always saved

If you can't agree with at least 2 of those without even thinking about it, then check your own salvation.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#8
I don't think you know what the 5 points are.

T original sin and its effect on the human race.
U God does not save because of His foreknowlege or our works, but because His sovereign choice
L the atonement was for the believer, not everyone who does not believe
I Non can resist the will of God
p once saved, always saved

If you can't agree with at least 2 of those without even thinking about it, then check your own salvation.
That's not exact presentation of Tulip . Each actual point is not biblical .
 

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
2,031
637
113
#9
That's not exact presentation of Tulip . Each actual point is not biblical .
I ought to know my OWN doctrine...and that TULIP is correct. And 100% biblical.
There is no "present day tulip"..........THE TULIP is one and only as written by BEZA
 

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
2,031
637
113
#10
Puritans, Pilgrims, US colonial history, (American) Thanksgiving, Calvinists...

What, exactly, are you wanting to discuss?
How about we discuss the things we all agree on instead of the differences......just for Thanksgiving.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#11
I don't think you know what the 5 points are.

T original sin and its effect on the human race.
U God does not save because of His foreknowlege or our works, but because His sovereign choice
L the atonement was for the believer, not everyone who does not believe
I Non can resist the will of God
p once saved, always saved

If you can't agree with at least 2 of those without even thinking about it, then check your own salvation.
I ought to know my OWN doctrine...and that TULIP is correct. And 100% biblical.
There is no "present day tulip"..........THE TULIP is one and only as written by BEZA
Then why did you state the points incorrectly .
T = Total inability . No one can believe the Gospel unless regenerated first .
U= unconditional election . placing a choice for conversion before people are born
L= limite
I ought to know my OWN doctrine...and that TULIP is correct. And 100% biblical.
There is no "present day tulip"..........THE TULIP is one and only as written by BEZA
We should not need to have an ' ism ' tell us what's true or false.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#12
Then why did you state the points incorrectly .
T = Total inability . No one can believe the Gospel unless regenerated first .
U= unconditional election . placing a choice for conversion before people are born
L= limite
We should not need to have an ' ism ' tell us what's true or false.
Limited atonement.
Irresistible grace.
Preservation of the saints.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#13
I ought to know my OWN doctrine...and that TULIP is correct. And 100% biblical.
There is no "present day tulip"..........THE TULIP is one and only as written by BEZA
You have a very fluffy view of these points .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#14
I don't think you know what the 5 points are.

T original sin and its effect on the human race.
U God does not save because of His foreknowlege or our works, but because His sovereign choice
L the atonement was for the believer, not everyone who does not believe
I Non can resist the will of God
p once saved, always saved

If you can't agree with at least 2 of those without even thinking about it, then check your own salvation.
Is that all you think the T is ?

Limited atonement is because God has either passed over or elected those to be reprobates. Jesus did not die for everyone.

Irresistible Grace is mentioned no where in the scriptures.

P is not eternal security apart from works or fruit inspection. Its based on you not knowing if you are one of the only ones Jesus died for . As Jesus did not die for everyone in your theology you could be one of those that thinks they are elect, only to fall away later proving otherwise. You have to constantly look to works to assurance. Making the P the most destructive point in the whole system .
 
May 29, 2020
312
142
43
#15
does that mean you are going to toss out your little puritan salt and pepper shakers???
Is the salt and pepper delivered according to predestination or do they allow free-will in the amount dispensed on my fish and chips?
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,504
2,711
113
#16
Puritans and Pilgrims took their Geneva Bibles and sailed to religious freedom. Though they had persevered through the persecution of “Bloody Mary” and the RCC, they wanted separation from the Church of England because it had combined Reformed doctrine with Roman Catholic dogma which was not tolerable for those who treasure ‘sola scriptura’. They were once again pursued as heretics, now by the CoE just the same as “reformers” had been the target of the RCC before Queen Elizabeth finally declared a ‘unification’ of the two (Church of England and the RCC) for the sake of peace. The bible was no longer THE scripture, CoE now had an approved prayer book and approved form of worship….the Reformers once again looked for free expression of their faith in other lands.

The Pilgrims, who had gone to the Netherlands (where they found freedom of expression) were the first of the group to leave for a new country. They left because they felt their children were becoming too Dutch and leaving their English roots. The Puritans left England because they were now being persecuted by the Church of England.

They were all Calvinist in doctrine, differing from each other in that Puritans were more legalistic and Pilgrims, a sect of the Puritans, were not. Pilgrims ended up at Plymouth “rock” and Puritans were the Massachusetts Bay Colony. These immigrants were never going to compromise scripture with the leaven of the apostates. These were the bearers of light to the new world.

Not wanting an uneducated pastorate, the Reformers founded these colleges: Dartmouth, Yale, Harvard, and Princeton. (Harvard being the first) Their churches were known as Congregational or Presbyterian, depending on the type of church government they preferred. The towns and villages they founded in uncharted lands are still there today and scattered among Vermont, Connecticut, and Massachusetts.

SO….when Americans celebrate Thanksgiving, they celebrate those brave stalwarts of the faith. How many little Pilgrim/Puritan images will decorate the house? Little “calvinist” images at every table? Little reminders that though Americans have split into other groups, we are still in agreement on some of the basics: Trinity, scripture alone and Jesus Christ’s atonement. It’s a starting place. And Calvinists DO have their place at the table.
You know I actually didn't know this part of history as far as the religious part goes, the way I was taught in school about thanksgiving painted a rosy picture but later learned it was actually really messed up what they did to the indians.

What is a calvinist image exactly? I never heard of this before but I do agree Calvinists do have their place at the table
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
#17
...but later learned it was actually really messed up what they did to the indians.
That is not what the historical record shows.

"In 1621, the Plymouth colonists and Wampanoag Native Americans shared an autumn harvest feast that is acknowledged today as one of the first Thanksgiving celebrations in the colonies. For more than two centuries, days of thanksgiving were celebrated by individual colonies and states...

In September 1620, a small ship called the Mayflower left Plymouth, England, carrying 102 passengers—... One month later, the Mayflower crossed Massachusetts Bay, where the Pilgrims, as they are now commonly known, began the work of establishing a village at Plymouth...

In November 1621, after the Pilgrims’ first corn harvest proved successful, Governor William Bradford organized a celebratory feast and invited a group of the fledgling colony’s Native American allies, including the Wampanoag chief Massasoit. Now remembered as American’s “first Thanksgiving”—although the Pilgrims themselves may not have used the term at the time—the festival lasted for three days. While no record exists of the first Thanksgiving’s exact menu, much of what we know about what happened at the first Thanksgiving comes from Pilgrim chronicler Edward Winslow..."


https://www.history.com/topics/thanksgiving/history-of-thanksgiving

Getting back to the Reformers, there is no question that much of their doctrine was strictly biblical. However, Reformed Theology distorted the Gospel as we see from TULIP (the Five Points of Calvinism).
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,504
2,711
113
#18
That is not what the historical record shows.

"In 1621, the Plymouth colonists and Wampanoag Native Americans shared an autumn harvest feast that is acknowledged today as one of the first Thanksgiving celebrations in the colonies. For more than two centuries, days of thanksgiving were celebrated by individual colonies and states...

In September 1620, a small ship called the Mayflower left Plymouth, England, carrying 102 passengers—... One month later, the Mayflower crossed Massachusetts Bay, where the Pilgrims, as they are now commonly known, began the work of establishing a village at Plymouth...

In November 1621, after the Pilgrims’ first corn harvest proved successful, Governor William Bradford organized a celebratory feast and invited a group of the fledgling colony’s Native American allies, including the Wampanoag chief Massasoit. Now remembered as American’s “first Thanksgiving”—although the Pilgrims themselves may not have used the term at the time—the festival lasted for three days. While no record exists of the first Thanksgiving’s exact menu, much of what we know about what happened at the first Thanksgiving comes from Pilgrim chronicler Edward Winslow..."

https://www.history.com/topics/thanksgiving/history-of-thanksgiving

Getting back to the Reformers, there is no question that much of their doctrine was strictly biblical. However, Reformed Theology distorted the Gospel as we see from TULIP (the Five Points of Calvinism).
Yes this is what I was taught in school but do a little digging in history and some dark truths come to light, here in Oklahoma if you are a part of a certain tribe you get so many benifets you get to instantly hazve a job in the casino making a lot of earning and are given a lot of amazing things such as living places and tons of other stuff there is a reason for that.

However I agree that the tulip certainly is not a path I would want to walk on
 

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
2,031
637
113
#19
Then why did you state the points incorrectly .
T = Total inability . No one can believe the Gospel unless regenerated first .
U= unconditional election . placing a choice for conversion before people are born
L= limite
We should not need to have an ' ism ' tell us what's true or false.
so far as I can tell you don't know what my ISM is.
Your TUL is incorrect and the one who gave to you is a liar.
Think about THAT.
 

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
2,031
637
113
#20
Is that all you think the T is ?

Limited atonement is because God has either passed over or elected those to be reprobates. Jesus did not die for everyone.

Irresistible Grace is mentioned no where in the scriptures.

P is not eternal security apart from works or fruit inspection. Its based on you not knowing if you are one of the only ones Jesus died for . As Jesus did not die for everyone in your theology you could be one of those that thinks they are elect, only to fall away later proving otherwise. You have to constantly look to works to assurance. Making the P the most destructive point in the whole system .
well well well
another one who thinks he knows by doctrine better than I do.
How about I explain YOUR doctrines.