Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"

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OIC1965

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How did Jesus respond in acts 1:7 to that final question about Israel? Did he rebuked them for still only thinking of Israel the nation, at that point in time?

You don’t believe ominisicence is compatible with free choice? God did not meant what he said in Zechariah 8?
Are you saying that God didn’t know if Zechariah 8 would be fulfilled in the First Century or not? It will be fulfilled, but it didn’t happen in the First Century, did it?
 

OIC1965

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Are you saying that God didn’t know if Zechariah 8 would be fulfilled in the First Century or not? It will be fulfilled, but it didn’t happen in the First Century, did it?
And yes He did rebuke them, because the Gospel was to go to all nations FIRST, (before the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel)
 
Jan 12, 2019
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And yes He did rebuke them, because the Gospel was to go to all nations FIRST, (before the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel)
You consider acts 1:7 a rebuke? Do you know what it actually states?

Israel the nation must be given a legitimate free choice to repent and believe Jesus is their messiah, before the kingdom could come to them.

What do you think peter was doing in acts 2 and 3, pleading with Israel to do so? You mean you thought he was appealing to gentiles?
 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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Unto the end means, death. We are eternally saved in life and shall find that out at our death.
Matt 24
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

I agree endure unto the end mean endure to the death.


I may wrong but to me it mean to be save we must endure to death.

Say a Muslim convert, than face persecution.
Loose his job, go to jail. Than He change his mind and deny Jesus to avoid death. He may free from persecution but loose his salvation.
 

OIC1965

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Sep 19, 2020
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You consider acts 1:7 a rebuke? Do you know what it actually states?

Israel the nation must be given a legitimate free choice to repent and believe Jesus is their messiah, before the kingdom could come to them.

What do you think peter was doing in acts 2 and 3, pleading with Israel to do so? You mean you thought he was appealing to gentiles?
Ok. It was a correction.
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
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How did Jesus respond in acts 1:7 to that final question about Israel? Did he rebuked them for still only thinking of Israel the nation, at that point in time?

You don’t believe ominisicence is compatible with free choice? God did not meant what he said in Zechariah 8?
He corrected them and said “ not for you to know at this time. This is what you will do and concern yourselves with...evangelizing the world starting In Jerusalem and working your way out from there. And He had already said make disciples of all nations.
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
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Matt 24
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

I agree endure unto the end mean endure to the death.


I may wrong but to me it mean to be save we must endure to death.

Say a Muslim convert, than face persecution.
Loose his job, go to jail. Than He change his mind and deny Jesus to avoid death. He may free from persecution but loose his salvation.
So if that happens, He cannot ever see the error of his way and turn back before he dies? Is He eternally lost?
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
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He corrected them and said “ not for you to know at this time. This is what you will do and concern yourselves with...evangelizing the world starting In Jerusalem and working your way out from there. And He had already said make disciples of all nations.
The exact timing when the kingdom will be restored to Israel was not for them to know correct.

But Jesus did not rebuke them for only considering Israel first. Until the nation repented, the 12 could not have gone to the gentiles.

As you said, they are to begin at Jerusalem
 
Jan 12, 2019
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He corrected them and said “ not for you to know at this time. This is what you will do and concern yourselves with...evangelizing the world starting In Jerusalem and working your way out from there. And He had already said make disciples of all nations.
Imagine Zechariah 8 stating clearly in her final verse

23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

If you are the 11, you would understood that once Jesus returns to establish the kingdom on Earth as promised when the nation Israel repented, the task of evangelizing the gentiles would be so much more direct, 10 of them will take hold of one Jew and ask him whether they could go with him.

They don't even need to approach the gentiles to evangelize to them, the gentiles will come to a Jew by themselves. ;)
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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So if that happens, He cannot ever see the error of his way and turn back before he dies? Is He eternally lost?
It is possible to turn back to the Lord before she die. But if she not than I believe she loose her salvation.

Base on that verse, I believe it require endure to the end to be save.

It happen to my ex neighbor, she was convert and baptized, but my friend say she back to Muslim because she loose her income, and her brother require her back to Muslim if she want help.

I know some people are strong and chose to be homeless for some time and refused to deny jesus.

Matt 13
The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy.
21
But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.

He receive it with joy, mean he has been save for awhile but loose his salvation because he can't endure persecution.
What happen with my ex neighbor, I don't know, she die of diabetes and burry as Muslim with Muslim ritual, but I don't know if she turn back to the Lord a second before her death. Peter was deny Jesus, but repent.
 

throughfaith

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Aug 4, 2020
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Maybe your thinking with regard to Gentiles surrounds the passage wherein Jesus told his Disciples not to bring the good news to the Samaritans or Gentiles. Matthew 10:5 Jesus sent out these twelve, instructing them as follows:[m] “Do not go on a road that leads to Gentile regions[n] and do not enter any Samaritan town.[o] 6 Go[p] instead to the lost sheep[q] of the house of Israel. 7 As you go, preach this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven is near!’

Sure enough, our Lord said that.
But why?

The answers are always in scripture TF. And all scripture is always about Jesus/God.
Zechariah14: 9 The Lord will then be king over all the earth. In that day the Lord will be seen as one with a single name.[o] (Notice? It doesn't say, king over Israel only).

Remember, the old testament is not done away with.

The old testament is the foundation of prophecy of Messiah and the new testament is fulfillment of that prophecy with Messiah come.
Why did Jesus say that? Because it was old testament prophecy of Messiah's mission once born to fulfill it. That's the message to Abram. Pay attention to the bolded last part of Genesis 12 excerpt below. This is why you are mistaken to think Gentiles are not included in the plan of salvation or are those other sheep in the sheepfold.

Genesis 12:1 Now the Lord said[a] to Abram,[b]“Go out[c] from your country, your relatives, and your father’s household
to the land that I will show you.[d]2 Then I will make you[e] into a great nation, and I will bless you,[f]
and I will make your name great,[g]so that you will exemplify divine blessing.[h]3 I will bless those who bless you,[i]but the one who treats you lightly[j] I must curse,so that all the families of the earth may receive blessing[k] through you.”


Any and all blessings come through the nation of Israel.
The promise in Genesis (above) fulfilled. The OT tells us in different books there that God always intended for the Gentiles to receive his free irrevocable gift. Isaiah 61, Jeremiah 3:15-18. Just two examples for you.

Luke 2:30 For my eyes have seen your salvation[v]
31 that you have prepared in the presence of all peoples:[w]
32 a light,[x]for revelation to the Gentiles,
and for glory[y] to your people Israel.”

Romans 15:7 Receive one another, then, just as Christ also received you, to God’s glory. 8 For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the circumcised[d] on behalf of God’s truth to confirm the promises made to the fathers,[e] 9 and thus the Gentiles glorify God for his mercy.[f] As it is written, “Because of this I will confess you among the Gentiles, and I will sing praises to your name.”[g] 10 And again it says: “Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people.”[h] 11 And again, “Praise the Lord all you Gentiles, and let all the peoples praise him.”[i] 12 And again Isaiah says, “The root of Jesse will come, and the one who rises to rule over the Gentiles, in him will the Gentiles hope.”[j] 13 Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you believe in him,[k] so that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.
I think you may be going into extreme s . Of course we read that the gentiles would be included in salvation.
Addressing this part of your quoted post.
You overlooked the first part of Peter's vision in Acts 11.
Up until Cornelius THEY are not preaching to Gentiles .
 

throughfaith

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Aug 4, 2020
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Jesus gave them new commands after the resurrection. Didn’t you get the memo?

Matthew 28:18-20. Acts 1:8, Luke 24:47-48. etc.
So you think the apostles are preaching to the gentiles prior to Acts 10/11 ?
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
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It is possible to turn back to the Lord before she die. But if she not than I believe she loose her salvation.

Base on that verse, I believe it require endure to the end to be save.

It happen to my ex neighbor, she was convert and baptized, but my friend say she back to Muslim because she loose her income, and her brother require her back to Muslim if she want help.

I know some people are strong and chose to be homeless for some time and refused to deny jesus.

Matt 13
The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy.
21
But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.

He receive it with joy, mean he has been save for awhile but loose his salvation because he can't endure persecution.
What happen with my ex neighbor, I don't know, she die of diabetes and burry as Muslim with Muslim ritual, but I don't know if she turn back to the Lord a second before her death. Peter was deny Jesus, but repent.
What do you do with the verse if they fall away, it is impossible to renew them unto repentance in Heb 6.
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
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The exact timing when the kingdom will be restored to Israel was not for them to know correct.

But Jesus did not rebuke them for only considering Israel first. Until the nation repented, the 12 could not have gone to the gentiles.

As you said, they are to begin at Jerusalem
Did the nation repent? I was unaware of that.
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
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Imagine Zechariah 8 stating clearly in her final verse

23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

If you are the 11, you would understood that once Jesus returns to establish the kingdom on Earth as promised when the nation Israel repented, the task of evangelizing the gentiles would be so much more direct, 10 of them will take hold of one Jew and ask him whether they could go with him.

They don't even need to approach the gentiles to evangelize to them, the gentiles will come to a Jew by themselves. ;)
Is that how it happened?
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
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So the apostles were in rebellion for years and years then ?
Not in rebellion. Unaware of the scope of the Gospel. Even though the scope of the Gospel was foretold by the prophets and Jesus.

Paul even had to correct Peter, AFTER the Cornelius event.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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Is that how it happened?
That is the thing about free choice. It did not happen because the nation Israel never accepted Christ.

We now know what was the outcome in Acts 28 because we were born after that fact.

But as far as the 11, and Peter are concerned, they never stop preaching to Israel, all the way to their deaths (Galatians 2:7-9). They could not go to gentiles at all, Cornelius household was a one-off incident by Peter, since the nation has never repented.

Zechariah 8 will happen in the future during the 1000 year millennial reign, as God promised in that verse "In those days it shall come to pass".