Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"

[BenjaminN]

BY grace THROUGH faith .
Shown here also
Rom 5
2By whom also we have ACCESS BY FAITH INTO THIS GRACE wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God

If you say grace is the gift of God, this "And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God" is a redundancy, if it does not refer to the saved person's kind of childlike faith. And then you want to say that faith is or your own doing, but that kind of faith is not a work? Please tell me how a small little child or incapacitated individual arrives at that kind of grace before death, that first requires their non-gifted faith as comprehendible pre-requisite? Faith is the gift of God (as is grace - as per definition of the word).

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

 

[BenjaminN]

The Lord of all will he not do what is right ? Babies, small children, those incapable of discerning or comprehending the Gospel? No . Sin is transgression of the law . You need to comprehend whats right and wrong and be able to accept or reject the truth so as to be saved.

We were all born into sin. All.

 

[MyrtleTrees]

Asking for forgiveness of sins after conversion makes zero sense. Again, why ask Jesus to do what He has already done?

We are totally forgiven - past, present, and future. Jesus died once, and it worked the first time - no repeat necessary. ALL of our sins were in the future when Jesus died.

"By one offering, He made us perfect forever." (Hebrews 10:14)

We became, at the moment of conversion, sinless, holy, righteous, and perfect - forever. How? Because we have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us!

We are as sinless, holy, righteous, and perfect as Jesus is.

Let that sink in.

He remembers our sins no more, they have been removed as far as the east is from the west, He keeps no record of our wrongs, It is finished.

So why do you see the need to keep asking for forgiveness?

I see the need for continual forgiveness, because I see God's Word as showing that it is required. If one repents of their sins, God forgives them. But if they choose not to repent - that's willfully turning away from God. God lets them go if they choose to do so. He doesn't force anyone to be His against His will. He gives all people the right to make choices in life.

The only ones God counts as "sinless" (in spite of unintentional sins throughout life) are those who sincerely repent of them. He forgives all those who sincerely repent.

1 John 1:9-10

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
KJV

 

[throughfaith]

If you say grace is the gift of God, this "And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God" is a redundancy, if it does not refer to the saved person's kind of childlike faith. And then you want to say that faith is or your own doing, but that kind of faith is not a work? Please tell me how a small little child or incapacitated individual arrives at that kind of grace before death, that first requires their non-gifted faith as comprehendible pre-requisite? Faith is the gift of God (as is grace - as per definition of the word).

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Try it like this . For its not by works you were saved . Wow !!! you mean I don't have to do anything? " no its by grace not of works ' . You mean I don't have to become a Proselyte? No my friend its by grace . It s God's riches at Christ's expense . His expense ? wow. Its really free and no strings ? " yeah man , its free or its no longer grace if its by works. " Awesome how do I recieve ? " Glad you asked , Through faith. Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved .
" I just believe ? no works? no circumcision? Baptism , tithing? My promise to surrender , my commitment? To make Jesus Lord of all ? fasting? charity work? church membership ? helping old ladies across the road ? confessing? standing on my head ?
Wow its a free gift ? this is too good to be true . Surely I have to do something ? " No ,otherwise its no longer grace . Grace and works cannot mix . So no one can boast . Amen .

 

[BenjaminN]

The prerequisite to be saved is by our faith . Grace comes after not prior . Neither Faith or Grace are substances lol .

There are no pre-requisites to grace. To have a pre-requisite to grace is contrary to the definition of grace.

 

[BenjaminN]

Because they refuse to believe the truth so as to be saved .

Because they were not granted grace, to belief.

 

[throughfaith]

Because they were not granted grace, to belief.

That's Calvinism my friend. Do you have a verse for that ?

 

[BenjaminN]

The access to the grace is by faith. Romans 5 . Its not automatically given . You can't be walking down the street then Zapp ! you get hit by grace . No Faith COMES from hearing the word of God . They need to hear the message in order to believe

What about those that cannot hear nor even comprehend - is this version of grace condemning those that God wanted to gift the gift of grace to the eternal hell fire.

 

[throughfaith]

There are no pre-requisites to grace. To have a pre-requisite to grace is contrary to the definition of grace.

Rom 5 again .
1¶Therefore being justified BY FAITH , we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2By whom also we have ACCESS by FAITH into this GRACE wherein we STAND , and rejoice in hope of the glory of God

 

[throughfaith]

What about those that cannot hear nor even comprehend - is this version of grace condemning those that God wanted to gift the gift of grace to the eternal hell fire.

You assuming either irresistible grace and or previenient grace is true . Begging the question .

 

[throughfaith]

There are no pre-requisites to grace. To have a pre-requisite to grace is contrary to the definition of grace.

God made our faith the prerequisite to be saved. Not works but grace .
Romans 11:6

“And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.”
The whole point is that we are not and cannot be saved by works . What does that leave us to be saved by ? Grace . Unmerited favour and mercy . God's riches at Christ's expense . We get through faith ( which is not a work ) Gods riches at Christ's expense . This is good news .

 

[BenjaminN]

That's Calvinism my friend. Do you have a verse for that ?

If that is the simple definition of Calvinism (that God granted grace to those that is saved), then it is correct, as by the grace God He gave his only son (first he gave grace - which is a gift by definition), so that whoever beliefs (faith follows grace, which is not of our own doing, it is the gift of God) that Jesus / Yeshua died for their sins, will be saved and have eternal life.

Ephesians 2 (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

 

[BenjaminN]

You assuming either irresistible grace and or previenient grace is true . Begging the question .

I do not find those terms in scripture. Grace is eternal, from the beginning of time God know when he created his first-born of creation, Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Meshiach, together with his other sons and Satan, as well as Adam and Eve, that his first creation will come to a fall, and that there will be no more sin in his recreated heaven and earth one day.

 

[MyrtleTrees]

Yes taking Christ seriously is indeed important , that’s what the gospel teaches us about lots and lots of encouragement and comfort for believers along side lots and lots of warnings of dangers and lost paths ahead .

we simply need to walk in the light rather than the darkness .

the thing is who are we supposed to obey ? And what was it that he said ?

There are two types of righteousness in scripture one comes from the law and ones faultless obedience to it

I find a gem for believers in there scriptures regarding righteousness and the mind frame we should have Paul is bragging about his freshly accomplishments under the law but his conclusions are relatively astounding

“Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord:

for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭3:5-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I love that chapter and find a ton of great value of how we should be looking at this whole thing a bit like your explaining we need to have a goal set as high as the heavens , but we should never think we’ve attained perfection. We should also look at the new covenant law and not the old one provides the righteousness of faith the other a righteousness of self that is worth dung compared to Christ’s righteousness

the law can’t make a person right before God but the gospel can .

“But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.


God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:23-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬


We need the law of the spirit not the law of the flesh

Yes, obedience to God, without having a relationship with Him is completely useless as far as concerns their status with God and as regards to what they can hope for in their eternity. Paul, a Pharisee - like other Pharisees - had been very strict to obey God in some ways at least (though Jesus said Pharisees also purposely overlooked some of God's laws). But that couldn't save him. Obeying God's laws without having a relationship with God - through having accepted Him as Lord and Savior of one's life - is what it means when it says it isn't possible to be saved by obedience to God's laws.

The gospel is what saves people - that's true. But to be saved by the gospel - one needs to come to full repentance of sin, first. And be willing to let God take control of his life thereafter. And be wiling to prayerfully and always - do one's best to obey God's laws (the New Testament ones - which are in accordance with the teachings of the gospel). And to be wiling to always sincerely repent of all unintentional sins, on a daily basis. Showing repentance of sins regularly - can be seen in the model prayer Jesus made for the disciples to use - called, "The Lord's prayer."

 

[MyrtleTrees]

I think repentance is a response of the heart to the convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit and it is part of saving faith.

True - the Holy Spirit is busy in this world, trying to get as many as possible - to come to repentance, so that they can be saved. But without responding to the Holy Spirit in his inviting one to be saved - no one can be saved. Hearing and believing the gospel is the first necessary thing in receiving the gospel. But it doesn't get fully received, until a person makes the decision to repent and to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior of one's life. As soon as a person sincerely does that - he is saved.

 

[throughfaith]

Let's

If that is the simple definition of Calvinism (that God granted grace to those that is saved), then it is correct, as by the grace God He gave his only son (first he gave grace - which is a gift by definition), so that whoever beliefs (faith follows grace, which is not of our own doing, it is the gift of God) that Jesus / Yeshua died for their sins, will be saved and have eternal life.

Ephesians 2 (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

let's put it in reverse so you may see it .
8For by your own deeds are ye saved through works ; and that not of God : it is the striving and working :
9Not of grace , so any man should boast.

 

[BenjaminN]

God made our faith the prerequisite to be saved. Not works but grace .
Romans 11:6

“And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.”
The whole point is that we are not and cannot be saved by works . What does that leave us to be saved by ? Grace . Unmerited favour and mercy . God's riches at Christ's expense .

Nothing except GOD's WILL precedes his grace. Not even the distorted version you have of faith (which YOU DO NOT CONSIDER AS GOD'S GIFT BUT THAT OF YOUR OWN INTELLECTUAL ABILITIES). The gift of faith that follows God's grace, is a childlike belief (requiring no argumentation, or self righteousness) that Jesus / Yeshua died gracefully for the sins of those that belief is like a child.

 

[throughfaith]

True - the Holy Spirit is busy in this world, trying to get as many as possible - to come to repentance, so that they can be saved. But without responding to the Holy Spirit in his inviting one to be saved - no one can be saved. Hearing and believing the gospel is the first necessary thing in receiving the gospel. But it doesn't get fully received, until a person makes the decision to repent and to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior of one's life. As soon as a person sincerely does that - he is saved.

//the decision to repent and to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior of one's life. As soon as a person sincerely does that - he is saved.// This is adding to the simple Gosepl message sadly.

 

[throughfaith]

Nothing except GOD's WILL precedes his grace. Not even the distorted version you have of faith (which YOU DO NOT CONSIDER AS GOD'S GIFT BUT THAT OF YOUR OWN INTELLECTUAL ABILITIES). The gift of faith that follows God's grace, is a childlike belief (requiring no argumentation, or self righteousness) that Jesus / Yeshua died gracefully for the sins of those that belief is like a child.

I think its silly to say everyone can have faith in false gods and false religion but they can't have faith in Jesus / the gospel or the bible, respond to his revelation, respond to the Holy Spirit , respond to creation, conscience ect . They can hold down jobs , go to universities, fly aeroplanes, go into space ect . But believe the Gospel? Nah they cannot do that ,say some ? why ? what's going on here . Its Gods Gosepl. Its his truth . " Oh no they can't believe God's truth. All other truths yeah sure, Gods truth though, no way . " ???

 

[throughfaith]

Nothing except GOD's WILL precedes his grace. Not even the distorted version you have of faith (which YOU DO NOT CONSIDER AS GOD'S GIFT BUT THAT OF YOUR OWN INTELLECTUAL ABILITIES). The gift of faith that follows God's grace, is a childlike belief (requiring no argumentation, or self righteousness) that Jesus / Yeshua died gracefully for the sins of those that belief is like a child.

Faith is not a super power .