Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"

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MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
805
322
63
Hi,
What I have learned in the last 5 years

Is in the way we define salvation...

Many people do not understand that we can be saved from many things.

Read EPHESIANS 2...

And asked what was the saving from in this case?

And you might find it was from trespasses and sins.
Having been quicken together with Christ.
Therefore the grace...We could not make ourselves alive and it was a favor unearned.

When one has been reconciled have they been saved from not being reconciled?

So now what can we be saved from by His Life? WE KNOW WE WERE SAVED FROM THE PENALTY OF ALL PASSED SINS and His blood brought us near.

How are we saved by His Life? [Is this speaking of eternal destiny?] OR how we are saved through His Spirit as we learn to live in His Victory over death by His very Spirit we have in us as alive, physical beings, with a heart beat.

If we through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the flesh ye shall live. [Is this salvation also] Is sanctification part of the whole system of salvation?

Another words doesn't God want to save our lives in our bodies, here on earth as we are living among people in this world?

Therefore one who mortified the deeds of the flesh shall live [have the good life partly now]

And How is this done? By the Spirit He gives you after being born from above with His life.

If God has given one Jesus's Spirit is it merely for heaven when one dies? Or getting heaven in one now?

And how is this possible? IN MY OPINIONATION it is possible by walking in righteousness with the help of the Holy Spirit trusting Jesus.

How else can stay close to have the father and the Son unless we learn to walk by the Spirit which ultimately transforms the heart and makes the out side clean to have a clear conscience before God.

Therefore the verse in first Peter 3 on the Baptism that saves us now. The resurrected power [life/Spirit] of Jesus.

Will the power of His resurrected life save you from present circumstances in this life if you do not walk in His resurrected life(His Spirit)?

So in conclusion: One born from above knows life and will stay close to it by purifying themselves by the word, by not just being a hearer but a doer. FOR IT IS THE DOER THAT IS JUSTIFIED NOT JUST THAT ONE HEARS, FOR IT HEARING ALONE IS DEAD.

THEREFORE SALVATION IS ABOUT SAVING US WHOLELY AND IF WE DO NOT SEE IT THAT WAY.....WE ARE MISSING THE FOUNDATION THAT ADRESSES THE PROBLEM OF WHY SANCTIFICATION IS BELIEVED TO BE UNNECESSARY.

FOR THE FOUNDATION IS NO OTHER THAN JESUS CHRIST. TRUSTING JESUS, NOT SOMETHING HE DID TO SECURE YOUR PLACE IN HEAVEN. EVEN THAT IS AN ESSENTIAL ASPECT. IT IS NOT THE FOUNDATION.

JESUS IS TRULY THE SON OF THE LIVING God, Lord and King. And if one truly believes this have they not truly been born from above.
Well, here is what I see:
Though Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world, none are pardoned by it - except for those who first come to repentance and accept Him as Lord and Savior of one's life. It's true that spiritual improvements will continue on after one gets converted to Christ - in fact - throughout one's life - and God's Spirit is very important in that - but also our willing compliance to His will. It's true there are many people who think they're righteous - but are not truly repentant. It's impossible to be sufficiently righteous to satisfy God - through any goodness done aside from reliance upon God, and having received Him as Lord and Savior of one's life. I know there are many true Christians who teach differently on this subject - but I see their way of teaching as not being quite doctrinally correct - though sincerely held.

The Lord's prayer shows the need to repent of sin in daily life, too. It is a model prayer Jesus stated - to show the basic things we should include in our daily prayers.

Matt 6:9-15

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
KJV

And here's a passage showing the necessity of repentance in order to receive the gift of salvation:
2 Peter 3:9

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
KJV
And see below, another passage about the necessity for repentance in order to get converted to Christ:
Matt 3:8-10

8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
KJV
And below is a passage that urges believers to remain diligent in obedience towards God:
2 Peter 1:4-10

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
KJV
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
Well, here is what I see:
Though Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world, none are pardoned by it - except for those who first come to repentance and accept Him as Lord and Savior of one's life. It's true that spiritual improvements will continue on after one gets converted to Christ - in fact - throughout one's life - and God's Spirit is very important in that - but also our willing compliance to His will. It's true there are many people who think they're righteous - but are not truly repentant. It's impossible to be sufficiently righteous to satisfy God - through any goodness done aside from reliance upon God, and having received Him as Lord and Savior of one's life. I know there are many true Christians who teach differently on this subject - but I see their way of teaching as not being quite doctrinally correct - though sincerely held.

The Lord's prayer shows the need to repent of sin in daily life, too. It is a model prayer Jesus stated - to show the basic things we should include in our daily prayers.

Matt 6:9-15

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
KJV

And here's a passage showing the necessity of repentance in order to receive the gift of salvation:
2 Peter 3:9

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
KJV
And see below, another passage about the necessity for repentance in order to get converted to Christ:
Matt 3:8-10

8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
KJV
And below is a passage that urges believers to remain diligent in obedience towards God:
2 Peter 1:4-10

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
KJV
The Lords prayer is an old testament prayer for the Jews Jesus was responding to . We have a direct personal individual , approach to God as a believer today.
 

MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
805
322
63
I thinks it becomes a stumbling block that salvation is between the lord and the person being saved . Salvation is a progressive thing like Jesus taught .

we first have to hear the gospel so let’s say we first hear John 3:16 and we hear about his death for our sins and his resurrection and we believe that and we make that confession of faith from our heart because we’ve heard a message from God but only a piece of it but it’s all we really know about yet it is like a seed in our heart but like seeds always do it’s planted with intent to grow slowly but surely .

so let’s say we begin attending a church and start to hear something Jesus taught about repentance and living right before God . That then becomes a point of growth some jump right in others aren’t able to hear that part yet they are little sprouts , some are partially grown others are maturing now while others are bearing lots of fruit . Jesus will work out who’s saved we should be helping one another along and not placing so many judgements and stumbling blocks in each other’s way .

Jesus taught often the parables about a seed being planted and it would grow some will eventually let the seed be taken away or the things of this world the list of the eyes and pride of life will choke the word and it won’t bear fruit but believers who believe will persevere and grow as God shines light and gives rain on thier lives

Salvation is about the most personal thing there is between a believer and their Lord And savior who have his life for them So we should
Leave room for Jesus to work out others kinks and fix their flaws inside and just love others as he said to do

great post God bless
Hi! True - salvation is a progressive thing. But it has to be real in order to even begin - and to be real, requires sincerity and repentance - a willingness to let God be lord of one's life.

Though many believers aren't at first - wholeheartedly obedient to God - prayerfully doing their best to do that - I don't see any believer who isn't doing that - as being yet fully secure in their salvation. And I see evidence in the Bible - that some believers fall away from Christ - as can be seen in the Sower parable. I also know of passages where believers are warned against the danger of falling away from Christ, and that explain ways to ensure this doesn't happen in one's life. No one helplessly falls away. It only happens when one chooses to do that. If one chooses to be diligent in serving God with one's life - that keeps one safe from having that happen. But many don't become that diligent in the Lord until after some time in their lives.

No one's able to be perfect. But if one is sincere, he will prayerfully do his best to be obedient in all things in daily life, and to repent daily of all unintentional sins. If one does that, God always forgives them.

2 Peter 1:4-10

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
KJV
 

MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
805
322
63
I believe in salvation by Grace through faith. My question is this; is the modern church ignoring the great commission by making as many converts as they can, but not discipling people?

Lordship/ discipleship is after saved by grace through faith. Yet Jesus commanded us to make disciples, teaching them to observe all His commandments

Have we cut that part (teaching CONVERTS to observe all He commands) out of our methodology to make Christianity more “ user friendly”?
Many sincere Christians explain the way to receive salvation a bit differently from one another. It's true that teaching it as correctly as possible - will get the best results. All Christians who explain it to others should always pray for God's help and guidance in explaining it to others.

I see the scriptures as teaching that repentance is essential to receiving salvation. And repentance involves willingness to see Jesus as Lord (the Master of His life - the one whom He should plan to obey to the best of His ability - and to be willing to repent of any unintentional sins he may do in daily life. There is a cost to following Jesus. Without being willing to pay that cost, no one can be saved.

Acts 2:38

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
KJV

Luke 3:8-9

8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
KJV
Repentance - itself is "fruit" - the thief on the cross that Jesus said would see Him in paradise - can be said to have borne fruit through His repentance. Another word for "fruit" is "works."
Rom 7:5

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death
KJV

Matt 7:20-21

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
KJV

Heb 12:13-15

13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
KJV
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
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I thought you were talking about 'election 'he was not “elected” until he “put his hat in the ring " No “election” is eternal, and the word never occurs anywhere but in a time setting. The word election appears nowhere in the chapter (Gk. eklektos, ekloge, suneklekte, etc.).
So are you saying Paul was chosen to ministry before he was elected by the foreknowledge of God? Yes or no?
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
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Are you Paul ? Is anyone else Paul . Deductive reasoning agan . God’s Son was revealed “FROM HEAVEN” (1 Cor. 15:47) before He ever got “in” Paul.
You said no one is chosen before they are saved. Paul disagrees with you. Galatians 1:15.
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
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The Lord appeared twice to Solomon (1 Kings 9:2), and he did nothing about it (1 Kings 11:6). The Lord appeared to Balaam (Num. 22:20) and got no results whatsoever (Jude 11).
, it would be rather foolish to compare the salvation of any Christian from A.D. 70 to 2020 with Paul’s conversion experience. Paul was a chosen vessel for the greatest miracle‑working ministry in the Bible outside of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself (Rom. 15:16–19). It would be rather presumptuous to say that every saved sinner was “separated from the womb” in that fashion.
Maybe not. But they all were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blame before Him in love.

They were also predestinated unto adoption as sons, and Paul connects this to the former clause, ( chosen from the foundation of the world) with an AORIST participle.
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
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Seriously. Did you read all my responses ?
Yes. You said election always refers to calling and purpose and NEVER happens before one’s conversion.

You also said no one is adopted or predestinated until after conversion.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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Ok yet Paul was seperated by God from His mother’s womb. Gal 1:15. Same verb used in Romans 1:1 and also the immediate context of Gal 1describes and defines what the word means.
I think your reaching to fit a verse into an idea that doesn't work . Paul was separated in the sense given , FROM the womb and not before in eternity past .
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
113
Many sincere Christians explain the way to receive salvation a bit differently from one another. It's true that teaching it as correctly as possible - will get the best results. All Christians who explain it to others should always pray for God's help and guidance in explaining it to others.

I see the scriptures as teaching that repentance is essential to receiving salvation. And repentance involves willingness to see Jesus as Lord (the Master of His life - the one whom He should plan to obey to the best of His ability - and to be willing to repent of any unintentional sins he may do in daily life. There is a cost to following Jesus. Without being willing to pay that cost, no one can be saved.

Acts 2:38

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
KJV

Luke 3:8-9

8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
KJV
Repentance - itself is "fruit" - the thief on the cross that Jesus said would see Him in paradise - can be said to have borne fruit through His repentance. Another word for "fruit" is "works."
Rom 7:5

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death
KJV

Matt 7:20-21

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
KJV

Heb 12:13-15

13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
KJV
I think repentance is a response of the heart to the convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit and it is part of saving faith.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I think your reaching to fit a verse into an idea that doesn't work . Paul was separated in the sense given , FROM the womb and not before in eternity past .
Do you agree it was before his conversion.
Thanks for answering
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
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I think your reaching to fit a verse into an idea that doesn't work . Paul was separated in the sense given , FROM the womb and not before in eternity past .
I didn’t say seperated from eternity past

I countered your claim that being chosen never happens before conversion. Paul was chosen from his mother’s womb, as was John Baptist, Samson, etc.

But here’s the thing. Do you have a mutable God who doesn’t know who He’s going to choose until a point of time is reached? That would smack of open theism, imo.