Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"

[BenjaminN]

No more than the air we breath and the food we eat. We have to put that faith into the right object. its who we put our faith IN that saves .

Which one of 1. or 2. following, do you consider to be more true of your faith:

1. Those that believe that Jesus / Yeshua died for their sins, came to that believe by themselves, without the original gift of God.
2. God originally gifted the faith, to those that believe that Jesus / Yeshua died for their sins.

 

[throughfaith]

Which one of 1. or 2. following, do you consider to be more true of your faith:

1. Those that believe that Jesus / Yeshua died for their sins, came to that believe by themselves, without the original gift of God.
2. God originally gifted the faith, to those that believe that Jesus / Yeshua died for their sins.

Not sure about some of your terms here . like ' original gift of God . ' I know the reformed position is regeneration precedes faith. And naturally of course because they share the T in TULIP the Arminain needs previenient grace . Or an ' enabling grace ' to 'awaken 'him somehow from his bondage . The two systems differ on this with distinction. For Calvinism this grace is irresistible and for Arminins it resistible. Both these positions lead to problems for the believer . They both lead to insecurity , lack of assurance and the error of Lordship salvation . Such passages like Eph 2.8 are contorted to make 'Faith 'a gift. Augistine first introduced this idea in the forth century and has been fooling chrsitians ever since . Like I said faith ,like our senses our bodies , our life , the air we breath and the food we eat ect are all gifts from God . Our faith is all that is required to please God when our faith is placed in the right object . Namely Jesus , the Gospel .

Rom 4.5 5¶But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, HIS faith is counted for righteousness.

What happens at this point in the discussion . Some will say " yeah sure His faith saves . But His faith was given to him from God " . With this type of reasoning now we can make the bible say whatever we want to fit a ideology or paradigm.

 

[BenjaminN]

Not sure about some of your terms here . like ' original gift of God . ' I know the reformed position is regeneration precedes faith. And naturally of course because they share the T in TULIP the Arminain needs previenient grace . Or an ' enabling grace ' to 'awaken 'him somehow from his bondage . The two systems differ on this with distinction. For Calvinism this grace is irresistible and for Arminins it resistible. Both these positions lead to problems for the believer . They both lead to insecurity , lack of assurance and the error of Lordship salvation . Such passages like Eph 2.8 are contorted to make 'Faith 'a gift. Augistine first introduced this idea in the forth century and has been fooling chrsitians ever since . Like I said faith ,like our senses our bodies , our life , the air we breath and the food we eat ect are all gifts from God . Our faith is all that is required to please God when our faith is placed in the right object . Namely Jesus , the Gospel .

Rom 4.5 5¶But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, HIS faith is counted for righteousness.

What happens at this point in the discussion . Some will say " yeah sure His faith saves . But His faith was given to him from God " . With this type of reasoning now we can make the bible say whatever we want to fit a ideology or paradigm.

Let's simplify:

Which one of 1. or 2. following, do you consider to be more true of your faith:

1. Those that believe that Jesus / Yeshua died for their sins, came to that believe by themselves, without the gift of God.
2. God gifted the faith, to those that believe that Jesus / Yeshua died for their sins.

 

[throughfaith]

Let's simplify:

Which one of 1. or 2. following, do you consider to be more true of your faith:

1. Those that believe that Jesus / Yeshua died for their sins, came to that believe by themselves, without the gift of God.
2. God gifted the faith, to those that believe that Jesus / Yeshua died for their sins.

Let s be careful and precise. I don't believe in Total inability. Or any of the Points in TULIP . I don't believe we have to be ' gifted ' an enabling gift of Faith prior to believing the Gospel. I believe from birth we all have the ability to believe the Gospel. To be able to respond positively to the Gospel appeal to be reconciled to God by our faith . Its our faith that from birth we are responsible to believe . Response - able . Able to respond . ( As an aside I don't believe babies or small children ect are held accountable )

 

[BenjaminN]

Let s be careful and precise. I don't believe in Total inability. Or any of the Points in TULIP . I don't believe we have to be ' gifted ' an enabling gift of Faith prior to believing the Gospel. I believe from birth we all have the ability to believe the Gospel. To be able to respond positively to the Gospel appeal to be reconciled to God by our faith . Its our faith that from birth we are responsible to believe . Respons - able . Able to respond . ( As an aside I don't believe babies or small children ect are held accountable )

I do not even know what TULIP stands for, what's it with calvinism all the time. We're talking scripture, not dogma.

I'm asking which one of 1. or 2. following, do you consider to be more true of your faith:

1. Those that believe that Jesus / Yeshua died for their sins, came to that believe by themselves, without the gift of God.
2. God gifted the faith, to those that believe that Jesus / Yeshua died for their sins.

Maybe scripture can assist us in our choice between our believe of 1. or 2.:


John 6 (ESV)

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

 

[throughfaith]

I do not even know what TULIP stands for, what's it with calvinism all the time. We're talking scripture, not dogma.

I'm asking which one of 1. or 2. following, do you consider to be more true of your faith:

1. Those that believe that Jesus / Yeshua died for their sins, came to that believe by themselves, without the gift of God.
2. God gifted the faith, to those that believe that Jesus / Yeshua died for their sins.

i believe that we are saved by our faith . I can't make it any more simple than that . And unless you live in a cave somewhere without access to other believers, church , books and the Internet its impossible not to be affected in someway by these doctrine s , that have permeated into nearly every tradition and denomination.Thats why you can be an Arminain or a calvinist without even realising it sometimes .

 

[Rosemaryx]

I do not even know what TULIP stands for, what's it with calvinism all the time. We're talking scripture, not dogma.

I'm asking which one of 1. or 2. following, do you consider to be more true of your faith:

1. Those that believe that Jesus / Yeshua died for their sins, came to that believe by themselves, without the gift of God.
2. God gifted the faith, to those that believe that Jesus / Yeshua died for their sins.

Maybe scripture can assist us in our choice between our believe of 1. or 2.:


John 6 (ESV)

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Amen...
B for me , I was dead before God made me alive...
All the glory goes to Him Amen...
...xox...

 

[throughfaith]

I do not even know what TULIP stands for, what's it with calvinism all the time. We're talking scripture, not dogma.

I'm asking which one of 1. or 2. following, do you consider to be more true of your faith:

1. Those that believe that Jesus / Yeshua died for their sins, came to that believe by themselves, without the gift of God.
2. God gifted the faith, to those that believe that Jesus / Yeshua died for their sins.

Maybe scripture can assist us in our choice between our believe of 1. or 2.:


John 6 (ESV)

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Why do you go to a verse that's in the old testament, and before the greatest thing to ever happen in the bible and in history? John 12 32
32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
Hey why not go to the time of noah and start telling everone they need to get on the Ark to be saved .

Its the cross , the resurrection . Not John 6 in the old testament.

 

[BenjaminN]

i believe that we are saved by our faith . I can't make it any more simple than that . And unless you live in a cave somewhere without access to other believers, church , books and the Internet its impossible not to be affected in someway by these doctrine s , that have permeated into nearly every tradition and denomination.Thats why you can be an Arminain or a calvinist without even realising it sometimes .

True faith is belief like a child, it is a return to innocence to just belief, as a gift from God - no comprehension, intellectual gymnastics or any of the sorts required. Not all receive this gift of the return to innocence to belief like a child, that Jesus / Yeshua died for the sins of those that belief this childishly.

Is our faith a gift from God? Did those who have it, received the gift from God? Did those who do not have faith, not get the gift? Or can we somehow comprehensively work our faith ourselves?


Ephesians 2 (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God

 

[throughfaith]

True faith is belief like a child, it is a return to innocence to just belief, as a gift from God - no comprehension, intellectual gymnastics or any of the sorts required. Not all receive this gift of the return to innocence to belief like a child, that Jesus / Yeshua died for the sins of those that belief this childishly.

Is our faith a gift from God? Did those who have it, received the gift from God? Did those who do not have faith, not get the gift? Or can we somehow comprehensively work our faith ourselves?


Ephesians 2 (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God

Yes you might need to research ' regeneration precedes faith ' and ' previenient grace ' . Id avoid both of these false doctrines that lead to insecurity and lack of assurance, at best .

 

[throughfaith]

True faith is belief like a child, it is a return to innocence to just belief, as a gift from God - no comprehension, intellectual gymnastics or any of the sorts required. Not all receive this gift of the return to innocence to belief like a child, that Jesus / Yeshua died for the sins of those that belief this childishly.

Is our faith a gift from God? Did those who have it, received the gift from God? Did those who do not have faith, not get the gift? Or can we somehow comprehensively work our faith ourselves?


Ephesians 2 (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God

Yes saved by grace not works . The gift is to be saved by grace and not works . Salvation is the free gift .

 

[BenjaminN]

Why do you go to a verse that's in the old testament, and before the greatest thing to ever happen in the bible and in history? John 12 32
32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
Hey why not go to the time of noah and start telling everone they need to get on the Ark to be saved .

Its the cross , the resurrection . Not John 6 in the old testament.

Are you saying that all men is drawn to Jesus / Yeshua, and all have faith?

 

[throughfaith]

Are you saying that all men is drawn to Jesus / Yeshua, and all have faith?

What do you think ? As you made a big deal of John 6 ?

 

[BenjaminN]

Yes you might need to research ' regeneration precedes faith ' and ' previenient grace ' . Id avoid both of these false doctrines that lead to insecurity and lack of assurance, at best .

I prefer to stick to scripture, it's much simpler.

 

[BenjaminN]

What do you think ? As you made a big deal of John 6 ?

My answer: No, all men/women do not receive the gift of faith from God, which saves them from their sins, through the offering of Christ / Messiah.

Are you wanting to quibble, as I do not? Do you always answer a question with a question? As you have not even answered this question of mine (not that you have to, just politely decline, if you prefer not to answer my questions, but to rather stack me with your questions):

I'm asking which one of 1. or 2. following, do you consider to be more true of your faith:

1. Those that believe that Jesus / Yeshua died for their sins, came to that believe by themselves, without the gift of God.
2. God gifted the faith, to those that believe that Jesus / Yeshua died for their sins.

 

[BenjaminN]

Yes saved by grace not works . The gift is to be saved by grace and not works . Salvation is the free gift .

Ok, so saved by grace or by faith, which is it?

 

[throughfaith]

My answer: No, all men/women do not receive the gift of faith from God, which saves them from their sins, through the offering of Christ / Messiah.

Are you wanting to quibble, as I do not? Do you always answer a question with a question? As you have not even answered this question of mine (not that you have to, just politely decline, if you prefer not to answer my questions, but to rather stack me with your questions):

I'm asking which one of 1. or 2. following, do you consider to be more true of your faith:

1. Those that believe that Jesus / Yeshua died for their sins, came to that believe by themselves, without the gift of God.
2. God gifted the faith, to those that believe that Jesus / Yeshua died for their sins.

I've answered many questions of yours. I've already answered the above question. The John 12.32 question is easy for me to answer but not so much for you if you hold to John 6 the way you seem to be doing .

 

[throughfaith]

Ok, so saved by grace or by faith, which is it?

BY grace THROUGH faith .
Shown here also
Rom 5
2By whom also we have ACCESS BY FAITH INTO THIS GRACE wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God

 

[BenjaminN]

I've answered many questions of yours. I've already answered the above question. The John 12.32 question is easy for me to answer but not so much for you if you hold to John 6 the way you seem to be doing .

If you like to tear John 6 out of your scriptures, it is your choice. I hold it as part of the word of God. Just as Ephesians 2, explaining in simple language that salvation/grace/faith is the gift of God. Not all receive this gift (especially not those who think it is of their own working), only those that God gifts it to. Its not a reward of our faith.


Ephesians 2 (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

 

[BenjaminN]

BY grace THROUGH faith .
Shown here also
Rom 5
2By whom also we have ACCESS BY FAITH INTO THIS GRACE wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God

So you say, we are saved by grace (which is the gift of God), through faith.