If the saved that is dead is in heaven ,With GOD ,Why dose the BIBLE say that the dead can not PRAISE the LORD .
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Hello Bud62!
People continue to use Eccl.9:5 while ignoring all of the other scriptures that prove that the spirits of the righteous are in heaven in the presence of the Lord, conscious and aware and the spirits of the unrighteous go to be in Sheol/Hades who are also conscious and aware. As an example of this, I provided all of those scriptures for you and you ignored all of them quoting Eccl.9:5, which doesn't say what you and others think it says.
When reading the word of God, all scriptures regarding a specific subject, such as this, should all be taken into consideration when forming a conclusion. The error that you and many others make, is using only certain scriptures to make your claim, while leaving out all the others.
For example, when the thief who was crucified next to Jesus said, "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom" Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise." How could the Lord make that promise to him when they both died that same day? The answer is, because after the death of their bodies, their spirits both departed and went down into the comfort/paradise side of Sheol/Hades, the same place that Abraham and Lazarus were as revealed in the rich man and Lazarus. In rebuttal of this, they will claim that the rich man and Lazarus is a parable. They do this because this information reveals two men who died and whose spirits were conscious and aware after they left their bodies, which destroys their idea of soul-sleep and therefore they have to circumvent it or distort it. After they've done that they say "show us proof" proof which they just discredited. And as you provide more and more scriptures, they will shoot them all down one after another, instead of admitting that they are wrong.
In the scripture above, the souls/spirits of those who had been killed on the earth are there under the altar in heaven, conscious and aware, having a conversation with the Lord and receiving white robes. I don't know why you would use this scripture, as it does not support your claim, but supports the consciousness of the spirit after the death of the body.
Paul, David and all the rest of the OT and NT saints are indeed still in their graves. However, their spirits are currently in the presence of the Lord waiting for the resurrection of their bodies while in heaven. In contrast, we believers who are still alive are waiting for the resurrection because we know that as soon as they are resurrected that the living believers will be changed and caught up with them.
The word 'anastasis' translated as 'Resurrection' is defined as 'literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to physical resurrection (of the body)."
When the Lord comes for His church, He will bring with Him all of the spirits of those who have died in Him and their bodies will be reanimated and reunited with their resurrected bodies. Those believers who are still alive when the Lord appears will be changed immortal and glorified and will be caught up with those who will have just resurrected. At this point the entire church from beginning to end will be gathered in the air to meet the Lord. Then in fulfillment of John 14:1-3, the Lord will take all believers back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us. The resurrection has to do with the spirit returning to the body.
What kind of apologetic do you make for when Elijah and Moses appeared and spoke with Jesus on the mountain where Jesus was transfigured? Though Elijah never died, Moses certainly did and He has not yet been resurrected.
The three scriptures that I provided referring to those "under the earth" demonstrates that the spirits of the unrighteous who have died as being down in Hades.
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And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
“To Him who sits on the throne
and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power
forever and ever!”
=========================================================
How can people under the earth (Hades) be singing if they are sleeping? And how can those who are under the earth in Hades bend the knee and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father if they are sleeping?
My advice to you, is to stop adopting the false teachings of men and do your own studies of God's word and believe what you are reading, instead of what other men are saying.
People continue to use Eccl.9:5 while ignoring all of the other scriptures that prove that the spirits of the righteous are in heaven in the presence of the Lord, conscious and aware and the spirits of the unrighteous go to be in Sheol/Hades who are also conscious and aware. As an example of this, I provided all of those scriptures for you and you ignored all of them quoting Eccl.9:5, which doesn't say what you and others think it says.
When reading the word of God, all scriptures regarding a specific subject, such as this, should all be taken into consideration when forming a conclusion. The error that you and many others make, is using only certain scriptures to make your claim, while leaving out all the others.
For example, when the thief who was crucified next to Jesus said, "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom" Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise." How could the Lord make that promise to him when they both died that same day? The answer is, because after the death of their bodies, their spirits both departed and went down into the comfort/paradise side of Sheol/Hades, the same place that Abraham and Lazarus were as revealed in the rich man and Lazarus. In rebuttal of this, they will claim that the rich man and Lazarus is a parable. They do this because this information reveals two men who died and whose spirits were conscious and aware after they left their bodies, which destroys their idea of soul-sleep and therefore they have to circumvent it or distort it. After they've done that they say "show us proof" proof which they just discredited. And as you provide more and more scriptures, they will shoot them all down one after another, instead of admitting that they are wrong.
In the scripture above, the souls/spirits of those who had been killed on the earth are there under the altar in heaven, conscious and aware, having a conversation with the Lord and receiving white robes. I don't know why you would use this scripture, as it does not support your claim, but supports the consciousness of the spirit after the death of the body.
Paul, David and all the rest of the OT and NT saints are indeed still in their graves. However, their spirits are currently in the presence of the Lord waiting for the resurrection of their bodies while in heaven. In contrast, we believers who are still alive are waiting for the resurrection because we know that as soon as they are resurrected that the living believers will be changed and caught up with them.
The word 'anastasis' translated as 'Resurrection' is defined as 'literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to physical resurrection (of the body)."
When the Lord comes for His church, He will bring with Him all of the spirits of those who have died in Him and their bodies will be reanimated and reunited with their resurrected bodies. Those believers who are still alive when the Lord appears will be changed immortal and glorified and will be caught up with those who will have just resurrected. At this point the entire church from beginning to end will be gathered in the air to meet the Lord. Then in fulfillment of John 14:1-3, the Lord will take all believers back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us. The resurrection has to do with the spirit returning to the body.
What kind of apologetic do you make for when Elijah and Moses appeared and spoke with Jesus on the mountain where Jesus was transfigured? Though Elijah never died, Moses certainly did and He has not yet been resurrected.
The three scriptures that I provided referring to those "under the earth" demonstrates that the spirits of the unrighteous who have died as being down in Hades.
==========================================================
And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
“To Him who sits on the throne
and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power
forever and ever!”
=========================================================
How can people under the earth (Hades) be singing if they are sleeping? And how can those who are under the earth in Hades bend the knee and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father if they are sleeping?
My advice to you, is to stop adopting the false teachings of men and do your own studies of God's word and believe what you are reading, instead of what other men are saying.
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[QUOTE="bud62, post: 4403633, member: 292893"
Rebuttal to Bud62[/quote]
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“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.”(Eccl: 9:5)
Matthew 17:1-3 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah talking with Jesus.
Acts 7:55-57 - But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices; they all rushed at him, dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”
Luke 16:19-31 - “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ” ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ “
Luke 23:39-42 – “One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him, ‘Aren’t you the Christ? Save yourself and us!’ But the other criminal rebuked him, ‘Don’t you fear God,’ he said, ‘since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.’ Then he said, ‘Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.’ Jesus answered him, ’I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.’ ”
II Corinthians 5:6-8 –“Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.”
Phil.1:22-24 – “If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.”
Phil.2:9-11 – “Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee would bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
1Pet.3:18-20 – “He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.”
Hebrews 4:12 - “For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.”
1 Samuel 28:11-15 “Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” “Bring up Samuel,” he said. When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!” The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?” The woman said “I see a spirit coming up out of the ground.” “What does he look like?” he asked. “An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said. Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. Samuel said to Saul, ‘Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?’ ”
Revelation 5:2-3 - “And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, ‘Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?’ But no one in heaven, or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it.”
Revelation 5:13: - Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
Revelation 6:9–10 when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
Rebuttal to Bud62[/quote]
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Consciousness After Death
Their proof of unconsciousness of body, soul and spirit after death:“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.”(Eccl: 9:5)
Matthew 17:1-3 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah talking with Jesus.
Acts 7:55-57 - But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices; they all rushed at him, dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”
Luke 16:19-31 - “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ” ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ “
Luke 23:39-42 – “One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him, ‘Aren’t you the Christ? Save yourself and us!’ But the other criminal rebuked him, ‘Don’t you fear God,’ he said, ‘since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.’ Then he said, ‘Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.’ Jesus answered him, ’I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.’ ”
II Corinthians 5:6-8 –“Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.”
Phil.1:22-24 – “If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.”
Phil.2:9-11 – “Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee would bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
1Pet.3:18-20 – “He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.”
Hebrews 4:12 - “For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.”
1 Samuel 28:11-15 “Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” “Bring up Samuel,” he said. When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!” The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?” The woman said “I see a spirit coming up out of the ground.” “What does he look like?” he asked. “An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said. Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. Samuel said to Saul, ‘Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?’ ”
Revelation 5:2-3 - “And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, ‘Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?’ But no one in heaven, or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it.”
Revelation 5:13: - Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
Revelation 6:9–10 when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
Irony 
The scriptures speak for themselves. I read them and make my conclusions based on them. Others read only the ones that support their adopted belief and ignore the others.
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in answer to OPS question
simple answer is the difference between the saved dead and the lost dead is the lost dead cant praise the Lord cos they dont know Him and arent with Him.
The saved dead go up, and the lost dad go down. They are not going to praise God because they cannot enter paradise, and wont be going to Heaven, they dont have His spirit that cries out Abba Father. They might even say a lot of things about God who they never knew but it wont be praise!
simple answer is the difference between the saved dead and the lost dead is the lost dead cant praise the Lord cos they dont know Him and arent with Him.
The saved dead go up, and the lost dad go down. They are not going to praise God because they cannot enter paradise, and wont be going to Heaven, they dont have His spirit that cries out Abba Father. They might even say a lot of things about God who they never knew but it wont be praise!
Philippians 1 is very plain as well. Having a desire to depart AND to be with Christ...
21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
you musta not gotten the memo
rev 5;6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
rev 14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Was Jesus and the thief about to enter a disembodied state of being? It's a state of being because only with a body do we have location. Paradise without location Paul thought he may have experienced.
2 Corinthians 12
12 It is necessary to boast; nothing is to be gained by it, but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I know a person in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of 3 And I know that such a person—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows— 4 was caught up into Paradise and heard things that are not to be told, that no mortal is permitted to repeat.
Paradise as a state of being without location is biblical.
2 Corinthians 12
12 It is necessary to boast; nothing is to be gained by it, but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I know a person in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of 3 And I know that such a person—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows— 4 was caught up into Paradise and heard things that are not to be told, that no mortal is permitted to repeat.
Paradise as a state of being without location is biblical.
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'God is in heaven'
'God is spirit'
'God is spirit'
Do you guys think third heaven can be moved...? I think all we know from the Bible and just general common sense should suggest it can't...?
Maybe "place" is a misnomer here... Maybe it's more alike to space... I mean space itself?
Space is not a place where you can say lo, here, or lo, there.
Space is invisible, yet all things that exist, exist in it.
Space appears when things are removed.
While there are things, we can't see space.
And space can never be moved. While if something is a place, it can be shaken and moved.
Hebrews 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Maybe "place" is a misnomer here... Maybe it's more alike to space... I mean space itself?
Space is not a place where you can say lo, here, or lo, there.
Space is invisible, yet all things that exist, exist in it.
Space appears when things are removed.
While there are things, we can't see space.
And space can never be moved. While if something is a place, it can be shaken and moved.
Hebrews 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
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P.S. not to cause confusion, I don't mean to claim third heaven is literally physical space, but I do think it's a lot like it, as opposed to a place. Instead of a location, it's more like a whole dimension, above our space-time. Which can be referred to as place I suppose, but it's not confined or localized, like people usually imagine a "place" to be, it's everywhere and can manifest itself anywhere.
I think so purdy much...lol. It is a kind of place. Material location exists within the spiritual boundaries. Those boundaries are defined by the likeness of the occupants. The boundaries of Hades for example were defined by Abraham and the unrighteous. Likeness dictated your place. A child of Abraham shares a likeness. In heaven we are like Him for we see Him as He is.
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