The Holy Spirit's different roles

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wattie

wattie

Senior Member
#1
Feb 24, 2009
3,230
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New Zealand
#1
Let's talk about how the Holy Spirit has different roles in dealing with individual believers and groups in churches.

What happens when someone believes in Jesus? They receive the Holy Spirit in their soul.

John_6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

2Corinthians_1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Now-- what happens when they are gathered with other believers as a church?

In Acts-- you see empowerment from the Holy Spirit in a different role to giving eternal salvation in sealing someone who believes. Instead they are working in churches , 'in the midst' of them. In the early churches-- the Holy Spirit was doing signs and wonders with the empowering.. now He is more in encouragement, empowerment, rebuke, teaching, without extensive signs and wonders.

What you see though-- is there is receiving the Holy Spirit for an individual believer.. then there is also a group of believers receiving the Holy Spirit as a new church, or a whole group being empowered.

For eg.. group/church situations..

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

(Act 19:1) And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

(Act 19:2) He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

(Act 19:3) And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

(Act 19:4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

(Act 19:5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.


Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.


So then.. when Paul had asked the disciples he saw-- disciples taught by Apollos.. have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed?

Had they received the Holy Spirit when they believed-- but had not received the Holy Spirit as a group to be empowered?

Not knowing about the Holy Spirit does not mean they did not each get sealed by the Holy Spirit when they believed. They would have believed in Jesus-- knowing Him.. that is enough.

There is a big difference between being empowered by the Holy Spirit as a church/group and being individually given eternal life.

So what are your thoughts?
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#2
May 23, 2012
13,007
4,313
113
#2
wattie said:
Let's talk about how the Holy Spirit has different roles in dealing with individual believers and groups in churches.

What happens when someone believes in Jesus? They receive the Holy Spirit in their soul.

John_6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

2Corinthians_1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Now-- what happens when they are gathered with other believers as a church?

In Acts-- you see empowerment from the Holy Spirit in a different role to giving eternal salvation in sealing someone who believes. Instead they are working in churches , 'in the midst' of them. In the early churches-- the Holy Spirit was doing signs and wonders with the empowering.. now He is more in encouragement, empowerment, rebuke, teaching, without extensive signs and wonders.

What you see though-- is there is receiving the Holy Spirit for an individual believer.. then there is also a group of believers receiving the Holy Spirit as a new church, or a whole group being empowered.

For eg.. group/church situations..

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

(Act 19:1) And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

(Act 19:2) He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

(Act 19:3) And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

(Act 19:4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

(Act 19:5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.


Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.


So then.. when Paul had asked the disciples he saw-- disciples taught by Apollos.. have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed?

Had they received the Holy Spirit when they believed-- but had not received the Holy Spirit as a group to be empowered?

Not knowing about the Holy Spirit does not mean they did not each get sealed by the Holy Spirit when they believed. They would have believed in Jesus-- knowing Him.. that is enough.

There is a big difference between being empowered by the Holy Spirit as a church/group and being individually given eternal life.

So what are your thoughts?
Click to expand...

this was talked about in another thread. many will not see the Holy Spirit who is God, is very much capable of doing more than one thing at a time. He convict the world of sin (John 16:8,) creates godly sorrow so those who are called can repent (2cor 7:9-10). He comes into the believer bare witness they are a Child of God(rom 8:16). He comes upon the believer to empower them to be a witness Luke 24:49 Acts 1:8 ).
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#3
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#3
CS1 said:
this was talked about in another thread. many will not see the Holy Spirit who is God, is very much capable of doing more than one thing at a time. He convict the world of sin (John 16:8,) creates godly sorrow so those who are called can repent (2cor 7:9-10). He comes into the believer bare witness they are a Child of God(rom 8:16). He comes upon the believer to empower them to be a witness Luke 24:49 Acts 1:8 ).
Click to expand...
not sure how you apply Luke 24.49 to today as its speaking to the diciples .
49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon YOU : but tarry YE in the city of Jerusalem, until YE be endued with power from on high.
50¶And he led THEM out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed THEM.
51And it came to pass, while he blessed THEM he was parted from THEM, and carried up into heaven.
And Acts 1.8
6When THEY therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#4
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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113
#4
wattie said:
Let's talk about how the Holy Spirit has different roles in dealing with individual believers and groups in churches.

What happens when someone believes in Jesus? They receive the Holy Spirit in their soul.

John_6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

2Corinthians_1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Now-- what happens when they are gathered with other believers as a church?

In Acts-- you see empowerment from the Holy Spirit in a different role to giving eternal salvation in sealing someone who believes. Instead they are working in churches , 'in the midst' of them. In the early churches-- the Holy Spirit was doing signs and wonders with the empowering.. now He is more in encouragement, empowerment, rebuke, teaching, without extensive signs and wonders.

What you see though-- is there is receiving the Holy Spirit for an individual believer.. then there is also a group of believers receiving the Holy Spirit as a new church, or a whole group being empowered.

For eg.. group/church situations..

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

(Act 19:1) And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

(Act 19:2) He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

(Act 19:3) And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

(Act 19:4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

(Act 19:5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.


Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.


So then.. when Paul had asked the disciples he saw-- disciples taught by Apollos.. have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed?

Had they received the Holy Spirit when they believed-- but had not received the Holy Spirit as a group to be empowered?

Not knowing about the Holy Spirit does not mean they did not each get sealed by the Holy Spirit when they believed. They would have believed in Jesus-- knowing Him.. that is enough.

There is a big difference between being empowered by the Holy Spirit as a church/group and being individually given eternal life.

So what are your thoughts?
Click to expand...
I think the confusion comes with not seeing the transitions leading up to and through the book of Acts . I believe we should not get our doctrines for the church from transitions in the book of Acts .
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#5
May 23, 2012
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#5
throughfaith said:
not sure how you apply Luke 24.49 to today as its speaking to the diciples .
49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon YOU : but tarry YE in the city of Jerusalem, until YE be endued with power from on high.
50¶And he led THEM out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed THEM.
51And it came to pass, while he blessed THEM he was parted from THEM, and carried up into heaven.
And Acts 1.8
6When THEY therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Click to expand...

Simple, context of Luke 24:49 which continues in the Book of Acts Chapter 1

Jesus in John 20:22 ( which you failed to address in this post)

Luke 24:49 which is clearly after they have been in the presence of the Risen Lord received the Holy Spirit as John 20:22 states, then told to go and wait for power to be a witness in Acts 1:8 to fulfill the Great " Commission". You forget that not only was the salvation of the jews she thing but also the whole world. You limit the Holy Spirit. or you can explain and answer the questions I asked.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#6
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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113
#6
CS1 said:
Simple, context of Luke 24:49 which continues in the Book of Acts Chapter 1

Jesus in John 20:22 ( which you failed to address in this post)

Luke 24:49 which is clearly after they have been in the presence of the Risen Lord received the Holy Spirit as John 20:22 states, then told to go and wait for power to be a witness in Acts 1:8 to fulfill the Great " Commission". You forget that not only was the salvation of the jews she thing but also the whole world. You limit the Holy Spirit. or you can explain and answer the questions I asked.
Click to expand...
Who is Jesus speaking to ?
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#7
May 23, 2012
13,007
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#7
throughfaith said:
I think the confusion comes with not seeing the transitions leading up to and through the book of Acts . I believe we should not get our doctrines for the church from transitions in the book of Acts .
Click to expand...
that is truly a deflection. YOU have doctrines by which you get your transitions from of your church unless you are going to say that you never were given any? The full context of Acts must seen with all four gospels

And the reason why I used Luke 24:49 and my text foundation then Acts 1:8 is because Luke wrote the Book of Acts so the context must be seen there and parallel to each other.

We can look at all Jesus said pertaining to:
  1. the great Commission
  2. the help of the Holy Spirit
  3. the empowerment of the believer
  4. relationship with the Holy Spirit in the believer
  5. the work of the Holy Spirit
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#8
Aug 4, 2020
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#8
CS1 said:
Simple, context of Luke 24:49 which continues in the Book of Acts Chapter 1

Jesus in John 20:22 ( which you failed to address in this post)

Luke 24:49 which is clearly after they have been in the presence of the Risen Lord received the Holy Spirit as John 20:22 states, then told to go and wait for power to be a witness in Acts 1:8 to fulfill the Great " Commission". You forget that not only was the salvation of the jews she thing but also the whole world. You limit the Holy Spirit. or you can explain and answer the questions I asked.
Click to expand...
John 20.22 ? In the OT the Holy spirit would come upon people for a task or power ( Samson , David, Saul , the workers of the temple ect) . its likely thats what happened in John .20 .22
. Jesus says he cannot send the Holy Spirit whist he was still on earth , so its most likely the Apostles recieve the indwelling in Acts 2 not just coming upon them as it would depart from people in the OT .
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#9
May 23, 2012
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#9
throughfaith said:
Who is Jesus speaking to ?
Click to expand...
FYI

authorial intent:

  1. who was the author speaking too?
  2. what time frame was it said in
  3. how did they apply it then
  4. how do we apply it today
To answer your question Jesus was speaking to the disciples who then spoke it to the church who then carried it down through the church age to you and me. So we can apply to our lives today. God is not limited because of all apostles are no longer here. The Holy Spirit has not stopped doing what he did back then. And nothing in the Word of God says the Holy Spirit has stopped doing whatHE has always done in the Both Old and New Testament. Nothing.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#10
Aug 4, 2020
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#10
CS1 said:
that is truly a deflection. YOU have doctrines by which you get your transitions from of your church unless you are going to say that you never were given any? The full context of Acts must seen with all four gospels

And the reason why I used Luke 24:49 and my text foundation then Acts 1:8 is because Luke wrote the Book of Acts so the context must be seen there and parallel to each other.

We can look at all Jesus said pertaining to:
  1. the great Commission
  2. the help of the Holy Spirit
  3. the empowerment of the believer
  4. relationship with the Holy Spirit in the believer
  5. the work of the Holy Spirit
Click to expand...
Again who was Jesus speaking to ? This matters .
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#11
May 23, 2012
13,007
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#11
throughfaith said:
John 20.22 ? In the OT the Holy spirit would come upon people for a task or power ( Samson , David, Saul , the workers of the temple ect) . its likely thats what happened in John .20 .22
. Jesus says he cannot send the Holy Spirit whist he was still on earth , so its most likely the Apostles recieve the indwelling in Acts 2 not just coming upon them as it would depart from people in the OT .
Click to expand...

NO, if that was the case then why Jesu say " Go and wait to receive power? You just said they had received it in John 20:22?

Are you guessing? Sounds like some new doctrinal position. That is not what the word of God says sir,
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#12
May 23, 2012
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#12
throughfaith said:
Again who was Jesus speaking to ? This matters .
Click to expand...
again I answered in-depth

authorial intent:

  1. who was the author speaking too?
  2. what time frame was it said in
  3. how did they apply it then
  4. how do we apply it today
To answer your question Jesus was speaking to the disciples who then spoke it to the church who then carried it down through the church age to you and me. So we can apply to our lives today. God is not limited because of all apostles are no longer here. The Holy Spirit has not stopped doing what he did back then. And nothing in the Word of God says the Holy Spirit has stopped doing whatHE has always done in the Both Old and New Testament. Nothing.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#13
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#13
CS1 said:
again I answered in-depth

authorial intent:

  1. who was the author speaking too?
  2. what time frame was it said in
  3. how did they apply it then
  4. how do we apply it today
To answer your question Jesus was speaking to the disciples who then spoke it to the church who then carried it down through the church age to you and me. So we can apply to our lives today. God is not limited because of all apostles are no longer here. The Holy Spirit has not stopped doing what he did back then. And nothing in the Word of God says the Holy Spirit has stopped doing whatHE has always done in the Both Old and New Testament. Nothing.
Click to expand...
All I can see from the the scriptures is that Jesus told the diciples those things to them . The rest is adding to the text an assumption. Which is a slippery slope .
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#14
Jul 3, 2015
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#14
CS1 said:
NO, if that was the case then why Jesu say " Go and wait to receive power? You just said they had received it in John 20:22?

Are you guessing? Sounds like some new doctrinal position. That is not what the word of God says sir,
Click to expand...
@throughfaith is saying the Holy Spirit, pre Pentecost, was given only for a time - a specific task or duration, and then removed/departed, compared to post Pentecost, where we now receive and are sealed with the Holy Spirit, Who does not depart us. This is not a new belief.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#15
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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113
#15
CS1 said:
again I answered in-depth

authorial intent:

  1. who was the author speaking too?
  2. what time frame was it said in
  3. how did they apply it then
  4. how do we apply it today
To answer your question Jesus was speaking to the disciples who then spoke it to the church who then carried it down through the church age to you and me. So we can apply to our lives today. God is not limited because of all apostles are no longer here. The Holy Spirit has not stopped doing what he did back then. And nothing in the Word of God says the Holy Spirit has stopped doing whatHE has always done in the Both Old and New Testament. Nothing.
Click to expand...
There's plenty in the bible which it doesn't say . We have to see what it actually says .
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#16
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#16
Magenta said:
@throughfaith is saying the Holy Spirit, pre Pentecost, was given only for a time - a specific task or duration, and then removed/departed, compared to post Pentecost, where we now receive and are sealed with the Holy Spirit, Who does not depart us. This is not a new belief.
Click to expand...
Thankyou .
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#17
May 23, 2012
13,007
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#17
throughfaith said:
All I can see from the the scriptures is that Jesus told the diciples those things to them . The rest is adding to the text an assumption. Which is a slippery slope .
Click to expand...
So you do not apply anything that was said to the Disciples by Jesus in scripture? FYI You do know That Jesus said everything to the disciples right? You are dodging my question and to suggest it is " adding to the Text and assumption" is just ridiculous.

That is your explanation of John 20:22 and Luke 24:49 and acts 1:8 when you hav e already said they have the Holy Spirit and there is no second work of the Holy Spirit. So Jesus said to the grand wait for why?
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#18
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#18
CS1 said:
So you do not apply anything that was said to the Disciples by Jesus in scripture? FYI You do know That Jesus said everything to the disciples right? You are dodging my question and to suggest it is " adding to the Text and assumption" is just ridiculous.

That is your explanation of John 20:22 and Luke 24:49 and acts 1:8 when you hav e already said they have the Holy Spirit and there is no second work of the Holy Spirit. So Jesus said to the grand wait for why?
Click to expand...
It explains the extra ordinary signs the apostles were doing . Which some churches are trying to recreate today . Involving snakes , poison, handkerchiefs and such .
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#19
May 23, 2012
13,007
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#19
throughfaith said:
There's plenty in the bible which it doesn't say . We have to see what it actually says .
Click to expand...
So you disagree that Luke and Acts are not contextual parallel books? I take it you did not agree with contextual unit chapters either?

The four Gospels are not to be studied as unity books in context to the Life of Christ? I guess the term Synoptic Gospels doesn't mean

" The same as" or lie the same in context to Mathew mark and Luke. I guess taking what is said in Luke and seeing clearer context in the Book of Acts is wrong Bible studying ?
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#20
May 23, 2012
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#20
throughfaith said:
It explains the extra ordinary signs the apostles were doing . Which some churches are trying to recreate today . Involving snakes , poison, handkerchiefs and such .
Click to expand...
explain the extra ordinary signs of Stephen?

the sign were for one thing as Jesus said in Acts 1:8 power to be a witness. what were they witnessing to? The resurrected Lord.
Acts 4:33.

what are we to winess to today? The same thing.
 
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