Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#481
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#481
You ke
OIC1965 said:
A. No secret knowledge in Calvinism.

B. Bible teaches election

C. Determinism was around long before Gnosticism and Mani. Believing in determinism does not make one a Gnostic.
Click to expand...
you keep saying the bible teaches election which is begging the question. Elected for what ? The Jews are the elect . Many people are chosen for a purpose or for service. Jesus is the elect. is Jesus being the elect means the bible is teaching election the way you think it is ? Or was Jesus the elect for a purpose. ( Unless you do believe Jesus and Israel were chosen to be saved before the foundation of the world ?,
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#483
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#483
OIC1965 said:
A. No secret knowledge in Calvinism.

B. Bible teaches election

C. Determinism was around long before Gnosticism and Mani. Believing in determinism does not make one a Gnostic.
Click to expand...
My point is all religions have an origin. Determinsm is not Christian.
 
O

OIC1965

Well-known member
#484
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
113
#484
throughfaith said:
A unrated man cannot believe the Gospel unless he is regenerated first . Only those whom God has 'elected 'in eternity past does he cause belief in those he saves .
Its not my job to convince you of the connection to Calvinism and gnosctism. I've mentioned a few links and I'm sure you can search this out on your own time . I do see the connection and I'm certain why Calvinism believes what it believes.
Click to expand...
The things you list are not gnostic tenets. Gnostic writings are widely available and even online for free. If you have citations from primary sources that show a connection, that is the the type of evidence that interests me.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#485
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#485
Corlove13 said:
What I am saying is Salvation is an everyday walk receiving new mercies and life.

1 John 1:7

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Therefore it is not merely one moment in time it's everyday as we dwell in His love.

Read psalms 91.
Col. 1:23

Look up the tense in John 6:40 and define believed
Click to expand...
Do you believe we are Justified in a moment in time when we believe the Gosepl ( by faith ) ?
 
L

lenna

Guest
#486
#486
throughfaith said:
The other aspect is whether your looking to yourself and your works for assurance . Or looking to what Jesus has done for your assurance. Lordship salvation is looking to yourself.
Click to expand...

right

in fact, I will go so far as to say it is detrimental to our walk because we would always be looking in the rear view mirror and second guessing ourselves

I was thinking last night about how Jesus says:

28Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” Matthew 11

I am viewing this Lordship salvation implementation (yeah I know it rhymes but not on purpose) as the same type of burden put on people by the Pharisees

they are still with us and HATE, yes I said HATE, the ACTUAL Lordship of Jesus which puts to shame all their efforts
 
O

OIC1965

Well-known member
#487
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
113
#487
throughfaith said:
Many seem to understand more about what God knows or doesn't know than they do about what God has revealed.
Click to expand...
God has revealed that He knows the end from the beginning. There is nothing hidden from Him. I believe what God says about Himself.
 
O

OIC1965

Well-known member
#488
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
113
#488
throughfaith said:
My point is all religions have an origin. Determinsm is not Christian.
Click to expand...
Your claim is that Calvinism is Gnostic. That is your goalpost. Please do not move goalposts.

Determinism is not Gnostic in origin, but predated it by several centuries. Therefore, Determinism does not indicate Gnosticism.

Simple rules of logic.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#489
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#489
OIC1965 said:
The things you list are not gnostic tenets. Gnostic writings are widely available and even online for free. If you have citations from primary sources that show a connection, that is the the type of evidence that interests me.
Click to expand...
Beyond the links I gave i dont think I'd convince your mind beyond those . Id just start there with food for thought . I see more correlation to stoicism/ hinduism / Gnosctism with calvinsm in the sense of Determimsm and an ' inner group that have the ' know ' . The 'chosen ' ones ect .
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#490
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#490
OIC1965 said:
God has revealed that He knows the end from the beginning. There is nothing hidden from Him. I believe what God says about Himself.
Click to expand...
What does that have to do with determinism?
 
O

OIC1965

Well-known member
#491
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
113
#491
throughfaith said:
You ke
you keep saying the bible teaches election which is begging the question. Elected for what ? The Jews are the elect . Many people are chosen for a purpose or for service. Jesus is the elect. is Jesus being the elect means the bible is teaching election the way you think it is ? Or was Jesus the elect for a purpose. ( Unless you do believe Jesus and Israel were chosen to be saved before the foundation of the world ?,
Click to expand...
Do a word study on eklego and eklektos.
 
O

OIC1965

Well-known member
#493
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
113
#493
throughfaith said:
Beyond the links I gave i dont think I'd convince your mind beyond those . Id just start there with food for thought . I see more correlation to stoicism/ hinduism / Gnosctism with calvinsm in the sense of Determimsm and an ' inner group that have the ' know ' . The 'chosen ' ones ect .
Click to expand...
Election is not based on the elect having secret knowledge in Calvinism. You can drop that imagined correlation now.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#494
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#494
OIC1965 said:
Your claim is that Calvinism is Gnostic. That is your goalpost. Please do not move goalposts.

Determinism is not Gnostic in origin, but predated it by several centuries. Therefore, Determinism does not indicate Gnosticism.

Simple rules of logic.
Click to expand...
Something needs to infiltrate like a virus . All through the new testament we are warned about false teaching . One of them is gnosctism . ( Colossians, 1 john ect ) Just like Constantine infiltrates christainity with a blend of paganism. Augustine managed to infiltrate Christianity with his previous ideas he did not get from the bible. So its not a stretch to look to his previous world view . Manachian gnosticism. His views on Original sin , election , on baptism, on sex and marriage on determinism ect . Just like many other influences of old .There is no bigger influencer on christianity than Augustine . To ignore this is naive .
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#495
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#495
OIC1965 said:
Election is not based on the elect having secret knowledge in Calvinism. You can drop that imagined correlation now.
Click to expand...
Election is based on determinism. And on Augustines version of original sin .
Any reading of his debate with paleaguis reveals he did not refute him from biblical premises .
 
O

OIC1965

Well-known member
#496
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
113
#496
Are there things that can only be known and understood by the elect?

1 Corinthians 2:14

I guess Paul was a gnostic in your book?
 
O

OIC1965

Well-known member
#497
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
113
#497
throughfaith said:
Election is based on determinism. And on Augustines version of original sin .
Any reading of his debate with paleaguis reveals he did not refute him from biblical premises .
Click to expand...
What effects did Adam’s fall have on his descendants?
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#498
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#498
OIC1965 said:
Election is not based on the elect having secret knowledge in Calvinism. You can drop that imagined correlation now.
Click to expand...
Palagius argued since Augustine claimed faith alone then he postulated faith is a good thing therefore you move first. Augustine then says ok faith has to given first. problem solved.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#499
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#499
OIC1965 said:
Are there things that can only be known and understood by the elect?

1 Corinthians 2:14

I guess Paul was a gnostic in your book?
Click to expand...
Id argue that you have a gnostic understanding of that verse lol 😆
 
O

OIC1965

Well-known member
#500
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
113
#500
throughfaith said:
Something needs to infiltrate like a virus . All through the new testament we are warned about false teaching . One of them is gnosctism . ( Colossians, 1 john ect ) Just like Constantine infiltrates christainity with a blend of paganism. Augustine managed to infiltrate Christianity with his previous ideas he did not get from the bible. So its not a stretch to look to his previous world view . Manachian gnosticism. His views on Original sin , election , on baptism, on sex and marriage on determinism ect . Just like many other influences of old .There is no bigger influencer on christianity than Augustine . To ignore this is naive .
Click to expand...
Nothing you bring up indicates that he was a gnostic. Influenced by philosophers? Like many ECF, yes. Gnostic? No.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.