Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"

[soggykitten]

Belief (or simply "faith") is indeed all that is required for salvation:

Ephesians 1:13, 2:8-9, Romans 3:28, Galatians 2:16, 3:6-7, 22-26, John 1:12, 3:15-18, 36, 5:24, 6:40, 11:25-26, 20:31, Acts:10:43, 13:39, 16:31, Romans 1:16, 3:26, 28, 4:5, 20-25, 5:1-2, 9:32-33, 10:4, 10: 9-17, 1 Timothy 1:16, 2 Timothy 3:15, Hebrews 11:7, 16, 1 Peter 1:5, 9, 1 John 5:1a. 5:5, 10, 13.

There's much more once you're saved.
One who believes all they have to do is say they believe in Jesus and that's it are wrong when they also disavow baptism, and disavow they are changed and no longer live as they did as condemned sinners in their sin because that would be works salvation.

Reminds me of the thug rapper millionaire celebrity types. Drug dealers, pimps, whore mongers, drug users, still banging through they wear a diamond encrusted cross. They think they are what passes for Christian.

 

[soggykitten]

There's much more once you're saved.
One who believes all they have to do is say they believe in Jesus and that's it are wrong when they also disavow baptism, and disavow they are changed and no longer live as they did as condemned sinners in their sin because that would be works salvation.

Reminds me of the thug rapper millionaire celebrity types. Drug dealers, pimps, whore mongers, drug users, still banging through they wear a diamond encrusted cross. They think they are what passes for Christian.

Mark 16:14 Then he appeared to the eleven themselves, while they were eating, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen him resurrected. 15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who does not believe will be condemned.

James 2:
Faith and Works Together
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters,[x] if someone claims to have faith but does not have works? Can this kind of faith[y] save him?[z] 15 If a brother or sister[aa] is poorly clothed and lacks daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm and eat well,” but you do not give them what the body needs,[ab] what good is it? 17 So also faith, if it does not have works, is dead being by itself. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.”[ac] Show me your faith without works and I will show you faith by[ad] my works. 19 You believe that God is one; well and good.[ae] Even the demons believe that—and tremble with fear.[af]

20 But would you like evidence,[ag] you empty fellow,[ah] that faith without works is useless?[ai] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that his faith was working together with his works and his faith was perfected by works. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Now Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness,”[aj] and he was called God’s friend.[ak] 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And similarly, was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

 

[Blik]

One of my points has always been; one does not make Jesus their Lord, Jesus is Lord.

Those who add any requirement other than "believe" to the gospel, preach a works salvation. No matter how they try to pretty it up.

But if we accept the work of forgiveness of our sins that Christ gives we become righteous and sinless. God doesn't ask us to then be perfect, God asks us to repent of sin. How can we manage to repent of sin and say it is not required to refrain from sin?

 

[Jackson123]

One who believes all they have to do is say they believe in Jesus and that's it are wrong when they also disavow baptism, and disavow they are changed and no longer live as they did as condemned sinners in their sin because that would be works salvation.

So when we believe in Jesus we are change and no longer live in sin, am I correct?

No longer live in sin, example helping the poor.
is that work salvation? Because helping the poor is doing something, or work?

 

[throughfaith]

you reject election but predestination is ok?
aaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrgh

Notice I reject the gnostic version of election .
Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)
Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)
Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)

 

[throughfaith]

I don't really think you know what Gnostics were.

Gnostics denied the humanity of Christ. Calvinists deny no such thing.

Gnostics taught that matter was evil. Calvinists teach no such thing.

I read you compare Calvinism to Manichaeism in another thread. That is a false equivelancy. Do you have any idea of what the Manichaes taught?

 

[throughfaith]

No, but if he said that the doctrine of election is gnostic, I don't want to read it.

I have studied Gnosticism, so that's all I need to know.

 

[throughfaith]

No, but if he said that the doctrine of election is gnostic, I don't want to read it.

I have studied Gnosticism, so that's all I need to know.

I don't think calvinism is the same as gnosctism in every sense.

 

[Budman]

The Bible says you're wrong.

Looking back over your posting history, you sure haven't proven it from the Bible.

I don't make a habit of sinning

It doesn't matter. If you have a single sin attributed to you, you are guilty and on your way to hell. Break even one of God's laws = you are guilty of breaking them all.

I follow Jesus' gospel and it isn't one that glorifies the lazy who think all they have to do is believe and live as they did before.

Do you still sin? Then you certainly live as you did before, despite your excuse that you don't make it a "habit". If you sin every single day (and you do) that is indeed habitual.

That phrase makes no sense.

One on death row can be pardoned by the governor, but if the inmate refuses the pardon, he will be put to death. It's the same biblically. Jesus offers a pardon to the whole world (as He paid the penalty in full for the sins of the whole world) but one can refuse His gift, and thus spend eternity apart from God in hell.

No.

Yes, you do - by equating "lazy" as proof one is unsaved.

 

[Budman]

One who believes all they have to do is say they believe in Jesus and that's it are wrong when they also disavow baptism, and disavow they are changed and no longer live as they did as condemned sinners in their sin because that would be works salvation.

And yet you still sin. Every single day of your life. So that would make you a hypocrite.

 

[Budman]

But if we accept the work of forgiveness of our sins that Christ gives we become righteous and sinless. God doesn't ask us to then be perfect, God asks us to repent of sin. How can we manage to repent of sin and say it is not required to refrain from sin?

Repentance is a change of mind - not behavior. Evidence of this is the simple fact Christians still continue to sin. Do you "refrain" from sin - or do you still sin?

 

[Budman]

The Bible says you're wrong.

Was the Penitent Woman saved apart from baptism? (Luke 7:37:50).

Was the Paralytic Man saved apart from baptism? (Matthew 9:2).

Was the Publican saved apart from baptism? (Luke 18:13-14).

Was the Thief on the Cross saved apart from baptism? (Luke 23:39-43).

Was Cornelius and those with him saved before baptism? (Acts 10:44-48).

Since the answer to these is YES - your whole case completely falls apart.

And I will ask you this once again: If one places their faith in Jesus and is born again, then dies before they are baptized, do they go to heaven?

 

[OIC1965]

Ken Wilson hold s to both of those lol

Have you checked his footnotes and bibliography against the sources he quotes and read the sources he quotes in context? If not, I would recommend it.

 

[OIC1965]

Was the Penitent Woman saved apart from baptism? (Luke 7:37:50).

Was the Paralytic Man saved apart from baptism? (Matthew 9:2).

Was the Publican saved apart from baptism? (Luke 18:13-14).

Was the Thief on the Cross saved apart from baptism? (Luke 23:39-43).

Was Cornelius and those with him saved before baptism? (Acts 10:44-48).

Since the answer to these is YES - your whole case completely falls apart.

And I will ask you this once again: If one places their faith in Jesus and is born again, then dies before they are baptized, do they go to heaven?

We’re saved by Grace through faith alone, and after we believe and are saved, we are baptized in loving obedience to God.

If we die as believers before baptism, we are surely saved. But I think every believer should seek to be baptized, urless circumstance somehow makes it impossible. ( like thief on the cross)

Not to be saved, but in loving obedience to Father.

 

[OIC1965]

I don't think calvinism is the same as gnosctism in every sense.

That’s like saying non Calvinists are not semi pelagian in every sense

The accusation of Gnosticism is a smear that non Calvinists use against Calvinists, and the accusation of semi pelagianism is a smear that Calvinists use against Non Calvinists

It’s time to stop the smears and love one another. There are Calvinists who are saved and there are non Calvinists who are saved. Love one another. This is Christ’s desire one John 17

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Notice I reject the gnostic version of election .
Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)
Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)
Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)

There is no 'gnostic' version........do you even know what gnostic means?
"predestined to adoption as sons" <---that is pretty specific for those who have eyes to see
You have your own version of everything.

 

[Blik]

Repentance is a change of mind - not behavior. Evidence of this is the simple fact Christians still continue to sin. Do you "refrain" from sin - or do you still sin?

It does not make sense to me that repentance is not a change in behavior.

When our minds decide on something, it is prerequisition of behavior. If you decide to repent, but then don't follow through with any action, it is not really repenting. Repentance is a verb, not an abstract idea.

 

[Blik]

There is no 'gnostic' version........do you even know what gnostic means?
"predestined to adoption as sons" <---that is pretty specific for those who have eyes to see
You have your own version of everything.

He has his own version of EVERYTHING! Are you sure?

 

[GraceAndTruth]

He has his own version of EVERYTHING! Are you sure?

Of course

 

[throughfaith]

Have you checked his footnotes and bibliography against the sources he quotes and read the sources he quotes in context? If not, I would recommend it.

I would recommend his dissertation for a more thorough study . But its not difficult to research the beginnings of Calvinism . It doesn't show up until the fourth century ,until Augustines debate with palagius. After that hey presto we start having concepts differing about what happened in eternity past and that faith is a work then regeneration precedes faith. It starts with Augustine .