Discussion on the End Times

[Yahshua]

It is a prophecy.
It is shown .
It is future.
Of course things are not happening in real time.
Did the prophecies about Jesus come to pass "spiritually"?.
He didn't need to physically come?

The book of revelation is framed in "things that will come shortly"
Things to come.

Historicist just randomly ascribe "fulfillments" as needed.

I'm not sure what you mean by "real time" when your challenge was about seeing flying scorpions. My point was you'll never see a flying scorpion like we never saw a flying lion or four-headed flying leopard...but those kingdoms physically appeared perfectly fulfilling those prophecies.

Every prophecy has been or will be physically fulfilled, but they will not be literal to the text of Revelation. Why? Because The Most High signified it. The symbols have or will represent something physically happening in our world.

The book of Revelation tells us how it is framed:

Revelation 1:19
"Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter."

- Hast seen = John's Past
- Which are = John's Present
- Shall be hereafter = John's Future

So it doesn't matter when a servant studies the book, that servant is going to be somewhere on the timeline of past, present, and future fulfillments of its prophecies.

He comes pretrib
He comes midtown (in rev 14)
He comes postrib on a white horse.
Concentrate on the horse and lack thereof.
2 times with out it.
1 time with it.

Which of those 3 events are you referring??

I'm referring to the Son of Man coming in the clouds with power and glory. It will be considered the arrival of the antichrist because most Christians have been taught - by extra biblical doctrines - that the antichrist will be a (1) handsome, world-ruling (2) dictator who is (3) still future and hasn't come yet.

 

[Absolutely]

I'm not sure what you mean by "real time" when your challenge was about seeing flying scorpions. My point was you'll never see a flying scorpion like we never saw a flying lion or four-headed flying leopard...but those kingdoms physically appeared perfectly fulfilling those prophecies.

Every prophecy has been or will be physically fulfilled, but they will not be literal to the text of Revelation. Why? Because The Most High signified it. The symbols have or will represent something physically happening in our world.

The book of Revelation tells us how it is framed:

Revelation 1:19
"Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter."

- Hast seen = John's Past
- Which are = John's Present
- Shall be hereafter = John's Future

So it doesn't matter when a servant studies the book, that servant is going to be somewhere on the timeline of past, present, and future fulfillments of its prophecies.




I'm referring to the Son of Man coming in the clouds with power and glory. It will be considered the arrival of the antichrist because most Christians have been taught - by extra biblical doctrines - that the antichrist will be a (1) handsome, world-ruling (2) dictator who is (3) still future and hasn't come yet.

Let's see
He comes in power on a white horse and the antichrist is destroyed by his brightness.
Accompanying him are billions of saints, also on billions of white horses already raptured and in heaven.
.....but you think somebody is going to not see him as God????
He destroys the antichrist that is already in power.
How can anyone think He is the AC?

 

[Absolutely]

""Your challenge was about seeing flying scorpions. My point was you'll never see a flying scorpion like we never saw a flying lion or four-headed flying leopard""

Not so.
You came up with that by leaving off verses.
It says they are released from some abyss.
It describes their appearance.
They sting...and the sting is like that of a scorpion.
Their sting brings intense pain.
THEY ARE COMMANDED NOT TO EAT GREEN PLANTS.
They are commanded to not sting the 144k christian Jews.

No way are they spiritual . They are,according to the bible ,very real.
You can not honestly claim otherwise.
No way.

 

[Yahshua]

Let's see
He comes in power on a white horse and the antichrist is destroyed by his brightness.
Accompanying him are billions of saints, also on billions of white horses already raptured and in heaven.
.....but you think somebody is going to not see him as God????
He destroys the antichrist that is already in power.
How can anyone think He is the AC?

Ask most Christians to describe the AC and these are the characteristics that will most often be recited:

- A man to appear on the world stage

- Be handsome

- Be a world dictator (iron rule)

^...But those are the characteristics scripture says the Word of God has when He comes.

Isaiah 4:2
"In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious..."

Revelation 1:7
"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

Revelation 19:15
"And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

The Son of Man will literally be a handsome world-ruler with an iron rule.

...and because Revelation is mostly studied through a futurist lense instead of how it was framed (historic: past, present, and future), they're still waiting for a principal AC instead of seeing who the "little horn" has historically been all this time.

""Your challenge was about seeing flying scorpions. My point was you'll never see a flying scorpion like we never saw a flying lion or four-headed flying leopard""

Not so.
You came up with that by leaving off verses.
It says they are released from some abyss.
It describes their appearance.
They sting...and the sting is like that of a scorpion.
Their sting brings intense pain.
THEY ARE COMMANDED NOT TO EAT GREEN PLANTS.
They are commanded to not sting the 144k christian Jews.

No way are they spiritual . They are,according to the bible ,very real.
You can not honestly claim otherwise.
No way.

Ok, then let me ask you...do you expect to see a literal 7-headed leviathan rise out of the sea at some point in the future as described in Rev 13?

 

[Keras]

rapture means to be caught up. The word rapture is from the Latin for 'raptura' found in 2 thess 4:17: Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. American ...

What I said was there will be no 'rapture to heaven'.
The 'catching up', as per 1 Thess 4:17, is to meet Jesus in the clouds, [AFTER He as left heaven] and to be with Him ofr the Millennium; in Jerusalem.

There are several rapture or catching ups in the bible.
1 thes 4 is the church rapture as is mat 25 the 10 virgins and mat 24 the one taken/left.

Iow read those verses.
Don't leave out the 2 escape verses either.
Study the bride/groom dimension.
Your starting place is off.
Re evaluate.

Yes, and NONE of them say there will be a general removal of the Church to heaven. Only a few individuals as in the OT and the 2 Witnesses, to happen later.
I suggest to you that re-evaluation of you beliefs is in order.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

What I said was there will be no 'rapture to heaven'.
The 'catching up', as per 1 Thess 4:17, is to meet Jesus in the clouds, [AFTER He as left heaven] and to be with Him ofr the Millennium; in Jerusalem.

Yes, and NONE of them say there will be a general removal of the Church to heaven. Only a few individuals as in the OT and the 2 Witnesses, to happen later.
I suggest to you that re-evaluation of you beliefs is in order.

I suggest to you that my business is not your business.

 

[Absolutely]

Ask most Christians to describe the AC and these are the characteristics that will most often be recited:

- A man to appear on the world stage

- Be handsome

- Be a world dictator (iron rule)

^...But those are the characteristics scripture says the Word of God has when He comes.

Isaiah 4:2
"In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious..."

Revelation 1:7
"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

Revelation 19:15
"And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

The Son of Man will literally be a handsome world-ruler with an iron rule.

...and because Revelation is mostly studied through a futurist lense instead of how it was framed (historic: past, present, and future), they're still waiting for a principal AC instead of seeing who the "little horn" has historically been all this time.




Ok, then let me ask you...do you expect to see a literal 7-headed leviathan rise out of the sea at some point in the future as described in Rev 13?

Ok.
Are you in an "either < > or" dynamic?

You can clearly see the flying scorpions are literal.
That is clear.

Trying to make every plague/judgement spiritual is just a rabbit trail invented to make a doctrine fit.

 

[Absolutely]

What I said was there will be no 'rapture to heaven'.
The 'catching up', as per 1 Thess 4:17, is to meet Jesus in the clouds, [AFTER He as left heaven] and to be with Him ofr the Millennium; in Jerusalem.

Yes, and NONE of them say there will be a general removal of the Church to heaven. Only a few individuals as in the OT and the 2 Witnesses, to happen later.
I suggest to you that re-evaluation of you beliefs is in order.

Only one coming is in power and judgement with Jesus on a white horse.
The others are separate and TOTALLY different appearances.

So the rapture at the end of the gt is impossible.
Not even remotely plausible.

 

[Absolutely]

Let's see
He comes in power on a white horse and the antichrist is destroyed by his brightness.
Accompanying him are billions of saints, also on billions of white horses already raptured and in heaven.
.....but you think somebody is going to not see him as God????
He destroys the antichrist that is already in power.
How can anyone think He is the AC?

^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^

GAME

SET

MATCH

 

[Absolutely]

Thread killer.

 

[Yahshua]

Thread killer.

^ I admire your faith.

Ok.
Are you in an "either < > or" dynamic?

You can clearly see the flying scorpions are literal.
That is clear.

Trying to make every plague/judgement spiritual is just a rabbit trail invented to make a doctrine fit.

Yes, actually I am in a either or dynamic. I'm trying to figure out your specific rules for deeming what is literal/physical versus what is symbolic/spiritual. If we have no consistent rules for everyone interpreting the prophecies then our private interpretation can't be relied upon.

The rules we're given in the 1st chapter of Revelation were:

1) the visions are signified (symbols)

2) what has been, what is, and what will be was all provided to John (historic timeline)

These are not my words, but words literally from the Father in chapter one.

...So shouldn't we must accept what the Almighty says?

 

[Absolutely]

^ I admire your faith.



Yes, actually I am in a either or dynamic. I'm trying to figure out your specific rules for deeming what is literal/physical versus what is symbolic/spiritual. If we have no consistent rules for everyone interpreting the prophecies then our private interpretation can't be relied upon.

The rules we're given in the 1st chapter of Revelation were:

1) the visions are signified (symbols)

2) what has been, what is, and what will be was all provided to John (historic timeline)

These are not my words, but words literally from the Father in chapter one.

...So shouldn't we must accept what the Almighty says?

Then the entire book of revelation is whatever you make it into.

Nothing in it is literal.
All symbolic.

Perfect incubator for deception.

No flying scorpions. No grass that they are forbidden to eat,no men that get stung,and no stingers,and the 144k are just a random mirage since the number of them is symbolic as well as the men themselves.

No heaven,no angels,no lampstands, no scroll, no hail stones,no elders,no "2 witnesses",no devil,no horses,no crowns,no trumpets,....every thing symbolic .

You painted yourself into a corner friend

 

[Absolutely]

^ I admire your faith.



Yes, actually I am in a either or dynamic. I'm trying to figure out your specific rules for deeming what is literal/physical versus what is symbolic/spiritual. If we have no consistent rules for everyone interpreting the prophecies then our private interpretation can't be relied upon.

The rules we're given in the 1st chapter of Revelation were:

1) the visions are signified (symbols)

2) what has been, what is, and what will be was all provided to John (historic timeline)

These are not my words, but words literally from the Father in chapter one.

...So shouldn't we must accept what the Almighty says?

The greatest tool that is available to discern and open scripture.....All SCRIPTURE, is the Holy Spirit.

It was He that showed me all end times dynamics are seen through the bride/bride groom prism.
The last sentences of the bible reveal that.
The parting words of the Holy Spirit are the bride calling for the groom.

 

[Absolutely]

You will never unpack the book of revelation.
It is a mystery
We only know part of it.

 

[iamsoandso]

^ I admire your faith.



Yes, actually I am in a either or dynamic. I'm trying to figure out your specific rules for deeming what is literal/physical versus what is symbolic/spiritual. If we have no consistent rules for everyone interpreting the prophecies then our private interpretation can't be relied upon.

The rules we're given in the 1st chapter of Revelation were:

1) the visions are signified (symbols)

2) what has been, what is, and what will be was all provided to John (historic timeline)

These are not my words, but words literally from the Father in chapter one.

...So shouldn't we must accept what the Almighty says?

Just from curiosity why are you saying that semaieo https://biblehub.com/greek/4591.htm means symbol instead of what the common definitions render it?

 

[iamsoandso]

I misspelled semaino ,,,sorry past the 5 min before I noticed,lol

 

[Yahshua]

Then the entire book of revelation is whatever you make it into.

Nothing in it is literal.
All symbolic.

Perfect incubator for deception.

True. And haven't many given a whole host of different interpretations? But the rules were set in chapter one.

Recall why the Messiah said he spoke in parables instead of speaking to the people plainly. He said it's because the secrets weren't given to everyone but only to those meant to hear it.

The living God doesn't change.

So likewise the book of Revelation was written for the SERVANTS, not for just anyone...and as we both know, not even everyone who says "Lord, Lord" is actually one of His.

The bible is the most published book in the world. Everyone has access to one, friend and foe.

It's not meant to be understood by everyone. And before you imply that I'm saying "I am one and you're not", let me say "no". What I'm saying is the book is like college-level courses that necessitate mastering the elementary courses first (i.e. the first books) as it references everything that came before it.

It's the crescendo; the resulting "fruit" from the foundations that were laid beforehand. So we must study the "old" stuff to understand all the "new" stuff.

You will never unpack the book of revelation.
It is a mystery
We only know part of it.

It's not supposed to be a mystery to His servants. It was written to prepare His servants, fulfilling His word in Amos.

Amos 3:7
"Surely the Lord GOD does nothing without revealing His plan to His servants the prophets"

 

[iamsoandso]

To make my interruption shorter I'll explain myself. I noticed that someone began to use the wording in Revelation 1:1 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/1-1.htm to indicate that the word "signified" https://biblehub.com/greek/4591.htm might mean "symbol" or that this were all symbols. It doesn't matter from whom or where but it is becoming more and more frequently used.

The word used in Rev.1:1 is a verb https://biblehub.com/greek/4591.htm while the word "symbol" is a noun https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/symbol and so examining Revelation 1:1 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/1-1.htm it states,,,

He signified it(verb) by having sent it through the angel of him(ties the verb/action to how the action takes place) to the servant of him John. So it is not used as an noun but instead as an verb and ties it to the action "sent through the angel" ect.

 

[Yahshua]

Just from curiosity why are you saying that semaieo https://biblehub.com/greek/4591.htm means symbol instead of what the common definitions render it?

It's my attempt to simply the meaning, bringing it into modern vernacular and understanding.

sémainó - "Definition: to give a sign
Usage: I signify, indicate, give a sign, make known. from séma (a sign, mark)"

Symbol - "a mark or character used as a conventional representation of an object, function, or process; a thing that represents or stands for something else, especially a material object representing something abstract"

Throughout the text, John says, "...and I saw another sign..." and it be a detailed object or event.

It's the same way prophecy was given to Daniel, through symbolic objects that representing literal, physical entities or events. And many times those symbols (or signs, if you will) were explained for what they really represented.

 

[Yahshua]

To make my interruption shorter I'll explain myself. I noticed that someone began to use the wording in Revelation 1:1 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/1-1.htm to indicate that the word "signified" https://biblehub.com/greek/4591.htm might mean "symbol" or that this were all symbols. It doesn't matter from whom or where but it is becoming more and more frequently used.

The word used in Rev.1:1 is a verb https://biblehub.com/greek/4591.htm while the word "symbol" is a noun https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/symbol and so examining Revelation 1:1 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/1-1.htm it states,,,

He signified it(verb) by having sent it through the angel of him(ties the verb/action to how the action takes place) to the servant of him John. So it is not used as an noun but instead as an verb and ties it to the action "sent through the angel" ect.

The angel signified it. The angel "sent them as signs". The angel "communicated (the revelation) as symbols (or symbolically)."