Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"

[MyrtleTrees]

Would mind explaining what you mean when you say you don't quite agree?

What I mean, is that I interpret those scriptures on the subject of the need for repentance differently than you. And sincerely so. I can't expect all sincere believers to believe the same as I do on all points of doctrine. But I do have to explain to them what I believe is the correct understanding to the best of my knowledge, prayerfully, and so do you.

 

[MyrtleTrees]

After salvation, does God override one's free will? How much obedience or "action" must be produced to determine if one is actually saved?

All that is required is to do one's best to obey God in all things, and to be in the habit of always sincerely repenting of all unintentional sins in daily life. Some have difficulty telling intentional sins apart from intentional sins, at first. But there's a big difference. One needs to want to obey God. If one doesn't want to obey God in his daily living - he has fallen away from Christ.

 

[MyrtleTrees]

After salvation, does God override one's free will? How much obedience or "action" must be produced to determine if one is actually saved?

1 John 1:7

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
KJV

All that's required is to choose to obey God, wholeheartedly, always, and to always repent sincerely from daily sins.

James 4:8

8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
KJV

Matt 7:16-20

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
KJV

 

[eternally-gratefull]

All that is required is to do one's best to obey God in all things, and to be in the habit of always sincerely repenting of all unintentional sins in daily life. Some have difficulty telling intentional sins apart from intentional sins, at first. But there's a big difference. One needs to want to obey God. If one doesn't want to obey God in his daily living - he has fallen away from Christ.

so we offer God a drink of water that is partially contaminated with the filth of sin because we tried our best. And expect him to drink it?

 

[MyrtleTrees]

I agree with Wikipedia's definition of the word, "repentance":
The doctrine of repentance as taught in the Bible is a call to persons to make a radical turn from one way of life to another. The repentance (metanoia) called for throughout the Bible is a summons to a personal, absolute and ultimate unconditional surrender to God as Sovereign. Though it includes sorrow and regret, it is more than that. It is a call to conversion from self-love, self-trust, and self-assertion to obedient trust and self-commitment to now live for God and his purposes.[2] It is a change of mind that involves a conscious turning away from wrong actions, attitudes and thoughts that conflict with a Godly lifestyle and biblical commands, and an intentional turning toward doing that which the Bible says pleases God. In repenting, one makes a complete change of direction (180° turn) toward God.

As for the etymology of the word, "repentance" - here's what I find online:
repent (v.)
c. 1300, "to feel such regret for sins or crimes as produces amendment of life," from Old French repentir (11c.), from re-, here probably an intensive prefix (see re-), + Vulgar Latin *penitire "to regret," from Latin poenitire "make sorry," from poena (see penal). The distinction between regret (q.v.) and repent is made in many modern languages, but the differentiation is not present in older periods. Also from c. 1300 in Middle English and after in an impersonal reflexive sense, especially as (it) repenteth (me, him, etc.).

Furthermore, the Bible shows that repentance,, if real - shows evidence of it's taking place by the fruit or works that show in the person.

Luke 3:7-8

7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
KJV

Matt 7:16-17

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
KJV

Luke 9:23-24

23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
KJV

 

[Budman]

Salvation is just the beginning. It isn't the end. If it were there would be no scripture whatever that speaks of our deeds as the saved. And there sure wouldn't be scripture in Revelation concerning our judgment before the Bema seat where we are judged. And part of that which is in review by God is our deeds in his service. 2nd Corinthians 5:10 “We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.”

Yet again, even the Judgment Seat has nothing to do with salvation. That was settled at conversion. I've said this many times, a born again believer couldn't go to hell even if they wanted to.

Maybe rather than easy believerism it should be labeled, lazy faith.

It's the true gospel, whether you choose to call it "lazy" or not.

Think about this, if God truly desires everyone to be saved, would He make it hard to do so? He made it hard on Jesus so that it wouldn't have to be hard for us. Jesus took all of God's wrath, all of His condemnation, even the terrible separation from God that comes with sin. So much so, the Bible says Jesus actually became accursed for us.

Service is not salvation. Salvation is separate from service. Every sin was forgiven. Every sin was forgotten. Every sin was thrown as far as the east is from the west. There is nothing left to atone for. No condemnation left for us.

Salvation is acquired by simply believing what Jesus accomplished on the cross, He accomplished for you. Works, before or after, are not required.

As I've said before, we should try to live a holy life worthy of what Christ did on our behalf. But those works have no bearing on the security of our salvation whatsoever.

 

[Blain]

What I mean, is that I interpret those scriptures on the subject of the need for repentance differently than you. And sincerely so. I can't expect all sincere believers to believe the same as I do on all points of doctrine. But I do have to explain to them what I believe is the correct understanding to the best of my knowledge, prayerfully, and so do you.

Oh I see well the difference in interpretation is expected it's only when believers start senselessly arguing when there is a problem

 

[Budman]

What did Jesus say? He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
Baptism is a ordinance in the church. Just to preempt any question about that statement, the church being the body of believers in Christ. People can take that scripture to mean, belief is a requirement, Baptism is an option because the passage does not say in its last part,... but he who has disbelieved and not been baptized shall be condemned.

What I think you should concentrate on as a matter of personal introspection is why are you so opposed to Baptism?

Baptism is not required in order to be saved. The Penitent Woman was saved apart from baptism (Luke 7:37:50). The Paralytic Man was saved apart from baptism (Matthew 9:2). The Publican was saved apart from baptism (Luke 18:13-14). And obviously, the Thief on the Cross was saved apart from baptism (Luke 23:39-43). Cornelius and those with him were saved before baptism (Acts 10:44-48).

Their sins were forgiven apart from baptism. Forgiveness of sins = salvation.

Paul himself said in 1 Corinthians 1:17, "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel..."

That's an odd thing to say if baptism was included in the gospel.

Let me ask you: If one places their faith in Jesus and is born again, then dies before they are baptized, do they go to heaven?

 

[Budman]

All that is required is to do one's best to obey God in all things

So, God grades on a curve?

and to be in the habit of always sincerely repenting of all unintentional sins

All sins are intentional. And since Jesus paid for all of our sins, there is nothing left to repent of. The Bible says without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins. Either all sin is indeed paid for, or Jesus would have to return and shed more blood for those sins still attributed to us. And He's not going to do that.

If one doesn't want to obey God in his daily living - he has fallen away from Christ.

You can't fall away from Christ. If that were true, then Jesus lied when He said nothing in all creation can pluck us from His, and the Father's, hand. Are you a created being? Then not even you can do it.

Sorry, but you are mixing law with grace. Read the book of Galatians to see your error.

 

[EleventhHour]

Last night, in YouTube, I listened to gotquetions.org, on the subject of lordship salvation. The speaker said that only lordship salvation saves. Anything less than that, is "easy believism" - and isn't able to save anyone. I also listened to John MacArthur in Youtube - preaching on the subject. He said Jesus and the apostles preached the need for repentance and the need to accept Jesus as Lord, in order for anyone to get saved. He mentioned a lot of Bible verses giving proof of this. He said many think they're saved, by praying the "sinner's prayer of repentance" - but make no effort to change their lives for the better. He said the word "repentance" means, "changing one's way of thinking - plans to do things differently." Both of these speakers said that belief isn't enough to save anyone. Only if coupled with repentance, does it save anyone. And many verses mentioned - showed repentace as preceding baptism and salvation - that's how the verses were worded! The verses mentioned repentance, before mentioningn all the other.
I've observed, that many evidently - true Christians believe that repentance isn't a necessary part to receiving salvation. I believe some of these Christians are true Christians. Since they appear to be walking in obedience to Christ in their daily lives. But their theology - their way of explaining it to others is incorrect. And so has the potential for misleading other people into "easy believism." With the result of their dying without Christ, often.
I talked to the husband of the home we clean house at yesterday about this, and he said that he has also noticed that many true Christians don't understand the subject the same as we do - who do see the need for repentance. He agreed it is hard for them to change their views on the subject, as they've learned incorrectly on it from habit and through people who taught that way. He said we must be loving towards them, though we can't agree on this subject - which is true, according to the Bible. But we dhould pray that they come to understand correctly on the subject.

James in James 2:18 is entering an objection to his argument ... it has nothing to do with ``easy believeism``

To quote that as truth is like quoting a statement that the devil made to Christ as truth.

As well, I am not even sure that the Bible addresses this modern day concept of easy believism

 

[soggykitten]

Baptism is not required in order to be saved. The Penitent Woman was saved apart from baptism (Luke 7:37:50). The Paralytic Man was saved apart from baptism (Matthew 9:2). The Publican was saved apart from baptism (Luke 18:13-14). And obviously, the Thief on the Cross was saved apart from baptism (Luke 23:39-43). Cornelius and those with him were saved before baptism (Acts 10:44-48).

Their sins were forgiven apart from baptism. Forgiveness of sins = salvation.

Paul himself said in 1 Corinthians 1:17, "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel..."

That's an odd thing to say if baptism was included in the gospel.

Let me ask you: If one places their faith in Jesus and is born again, then dies before they are baptized, do they go to heaven?

Yes.
You too are not reading me as I wrote my posts. That's too bad.
Let me ask you, why are you opposed to Baptism?

 

[soggykitten]

Yet again, even the Judgment Seat has nothing to do with salvation. That was settled at conversion. I've said this many times, a born again believer couldn't go to hell even if they wanted to.

Like I said there certainly appears to be an anti-gospel front active in the world today.
Christians, and new Christians especially, please read this. Follow the scripture! Do not believe every spirit but test the spirits. Because there are spirits intent on leading you wrong and that can be costly.

It's the true gospel, whether you choose to call it "lazy" or not.

It is a false gospel when its proponents claim all you have to do is believe! That's it. All done.
And then they don't change at all from what they were but remain the ahole they were, the criminal they were, the party drunk animal they were, etc... Yep! That's not the true gospel. That's the lazy gospel. Have faith, act like the devil, go to heaven.
Not in scripture. Not one word of it is scripture.

Think about this, if God truly desires everyone to be saved, would He make it hard to do so? He made it hard on Jesus so that it wouldn't have to be hard for us. Jesus took all of God's wrath, all of His condemnation, even the terrible separation from God that comes with sin. So much so, the Bible says Jesus actually became accursed for us.

You believe in universalism then?

Service is not salvation

Never said it was! Never said it don't need to defend what wasn't said.
What is this? A club?
Misrepresent what someone says, make up our own narrative in place of what they actually said, challenge the person we misrepresented to then defend our words that we blame on them as having written not! them.

 

[lenna]

Yes.
You too are not reading me as I wrote my posts. That's too bad.
Let me ask you, why are you opposed to Baptism?

the real question is why you think baptism is equal to the death of Jesus on the cross

one, is what we do to show we follow Jesus, the other is Jesus taking our place because God says that all our righteousness is as a filthy rag...now go and look up just what a filthy rage represents here

baptism does not save. I am baptized but BECAUSE I was saved

baptism does not save

 

[soggykitten]

What I think is you are a person who has nothing better to do but try to belittle anyone who does not agree with you

Don't paint your tactics upon me.

show me where Jesus mentioned baptism to nicodemus in telling him how to be born Again, if you can do this, then I will grant you may be right.

When John 3 can't reach you you are not meant to be reached. And it is a capital N when spelling the name of Nicodemus. Just as it is a capital G when writing the title of our creator, God. Not as you do, god.

 

[lenna]

Like I said there certainly appears to be an anti-gospel front active in the world today.
Christians, and new Christians especially, please read this. Follow the scripture! Do not believe every spirit but test the spirits. Because there are spirits intent on leading you wrong and that can be costly.

the gospel is not baptism in water

first of all, the word gospel means good news...not let's get all wet...which is why the baptism to be saved cult is...all wet

the good news is that God forgives our sin through the shed blood of His son, Jesus. period.

I guess the fact the man on the cross beside Jesus was saved, well according to Jesus anyway, and NEVER baptized was to clue you and others to the fact that baptism is not salvation. we are baptized BECAUSE we are saved

 

[lenna]

It is a false gospel when its proponents claim all you have to do is believe! That's it. All done.
And then they don't change at all from what they were but remain the ahole they were, the criminal they were, the party drunk animal they were, etc... Yep! That's not the true gospel. That's the lazy gospel. Have faith, act like the devil, go to heaven.
Not in scripture. Not one word of it is scripture.

and how were you saved? good works? water dunking?

the word faith seems to be missing from your vocabulary

you are getting way out of line. watch your language

you know, one of the ways that a person illustrates they are saved is by CONTROLLING their tongue

26 Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. James 1

the rest of your post is simply an angry rant. temper...not good

 

[soggykitten]

the gospel is not baptism in water

first of all, the word gospel means good news...not let's get all wet...which is why the baptism to be saved cult is...all wet

the good news is that God forgives our sin through the shed blood of His son, Jesus. period.

I guess the fact the man on the cross beside Jesus was saved, well according to Jesus anyway, and NEVER baptized was to clue you and others to the fact that baptism is not salvation. we are baptized BECAUSE we are saved

What is that now? Three that don't actually read what I wrote? Maybe more it's hard to keep count.

 

[soggykitten]

and how were you saved? good works? water dunking?

the word faith seems to be missing from your vocabulary

you are getting way out of line. watch your language

you know, one of the ways that a person illustrates they are saved is by CONTROLLING their tongue

26 Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. James 1

the rest of your post is simply an angry rant. temper...not good

You're talking to yourself there dear. Talking to and about yourself.
I'll pray for you. We can read your post history remember.

 

[lenna]

What is that now? Three that don't actually read what I wrote? Maybe more it's hard to keep count.

maybe if you tone your rhetoric down, you could see better to count since you are not sure

oh I have been reading your posts for some time now

 

[SoulWeaver]

A lot of discussion and theorizing about sin at some point produces sin of its own.