THE CONVICTION OF TRUTH FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT, THE ENEMY AND HIS LIES, AND MANKIND'S DISCERNMENT.

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When Christ said that you need to "repent and believe", what was he directing you to believe in?

  • The truth.

    Votes: 6 85.7%
  • Jesus Christ.

    Votes: 7 100.0%

  • Total voters
    7
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#21
I could be wrong but I think he meant that we Gentiles were not there by and large to hear Jesus' words. Of course, there were SOME Gentiles who responded to the Gospel at that time, but Christ's physical audience during His time on Earth was primarily Jewish. After His ascension, and after the Holy Spirit came, the apostles went out and preached to Jews and Gentiles alike.
Thanks. What do you think was the primary reason why, when the Canaanite lady came to Jesus in Matthew 15, calling him the "Son of David", which was the correct term used by the Jews for Jesus, we observe these events
  1. Jesus ignored her.
  2. The disciples urged Jesus, in vs 23 to "send her away"
  3. Jesus not only did not rebuke them for that request, he even "supported them" by replying with vs 24 " I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
  4. Jesus went on to insult/test her by calling her a dog/"puppy".
  5. Only after she responded correctly, showing a willingness to put herself under the Jewish children as her "masters", then her request was granted (Mark 7:29)
Do all these events lend support to the claim that Jesus first ministry on earth also included the gentiles, even if we didn't have the knowledge of Paul's statement in Ephesians 2:11-12?

A very interesting contrast was found in Jesus’s attitude towards Blind Bartimaeus, in Matthew 10

46 Now they came to Jericho. As He went out of Jericho with His disciples and a great multitude, blind Bartimaeus, the son of Timaeus, sat by the road begging. 47 And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out and say, “Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!”

48 Then many warned him to be quiet; but he cried out all the more, “Son of David, have mercy on me!” 49 So Jesus stood still and commanded him to be called.

Then they called the blind man, saying to him, “Be of good cheer. Rise, He is calling you.” 50 And throwing aside his garment, he rose and came to Jesus. 51 So Jesus answered and said to him, “What do you want Me to do for you?” The blind man said to Him, [a]“Rabboni, that I may receive my sight.”

52 Then Jesus said to him, “Go your way; your faith has [b]made you well.” And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus on the road.

One can’t help but to notice the contrast in Jesus’s treatment in the two cases of people who exhibited faith. Both the Canaanite lady and Blind Bartimaeus called him the Son of David, which is the proper term for Jesus. Both of them have faith, one might even argue that the Canaanite lady had lesser unbelief than Blind Bartimaeus.

But because the latter was a Jew, Jesus, almighty God, actually stood still and healed him without any hesitation. But the lady, who is a Gentile, had to further go thru so many tests.

When I understood these 2 accounts from the book of Matthew together, I begin to understand so much better what Paul was saying to us in Ephesians 2:11-12

Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
4,889
2,534
113
#22
If you can't discern the truth you do not have the spirit of truth and therefore you do not have salvation.
Discerning the truth is a fruit of salvation.
Watch out not to tear into the foundation, because this is what happens when you begin introducing doubts. What is your proof then, that you are not deceived?

If you say "I am not deceived because I have the spirit of truth", then what if you discerned wrongly, because you claim correct discerning is preeminent to the Spirit?

If you say "I am not deceived because I have discerned the truth correctly", then who is your witness that you have indeed discerned it correctly? Because it's the Spirit that testifies that what one is saying is true. And in case you discerned wrongly, the Spirit of truth which you are deceived to believe you have, is then not there, according to your own words. So with this logic, you have no proof to claim even that you yourself are not presently deceived.

As for me, I believe that we are able to know things by their fruit, and also that we don't ask God for a fish to get a snake.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#23
The suriety and convincing power of the Holy Spirit are strong and sure when it comes to the truth in the Gospel. But, the enemy is powerful, cunning, and the master of lies. He knows how to manipulate mankind through their sinful nature and is persistent in thwarting the truth in the word of God.
Our salvation depends on the ability to discern the truth and worship the Father in Spirit and in Truth.
There's no doubt the numbers are high who believe they know and are known by Christ, and are not. Masses fall victim to the lies of the Devil, and unsaved pastors who are unable to know and preach the truth in scripture. The blind leading the blind.
It's amazing how much zeal one can have for lies (I am specifically speaking of discussion on Christian Chat). it amazes me that lies and half truths from the enemy have as much conviction of belief as the powerful Spirit of truth from God.
The churches have been avoiding true doctrine for so long that telling the truth today is like putting new wine in old bottles, or sewing a new cloth onto an old garment.
When the Gospel is preached it has the ability to give eternal life, but there won't be any true saving faith coming from half truths and lies. What does the Spirit of truth say deep within your soul when you read the New Testament? Are you able to discern what the spirit is teaching over what the enemy is spreading?
What is true saving faith and it's attributes consist of to you?
Are you SURE you are even a child of God? (I ask in deep concern, not an accusing tone).
We need to understand the Holy Spirit to understand what we receive from that Spirit.

The Holy Spirit was first given to all on the day they celebrated the giving of the law on Mt Sinai, and the Holy Spirit now gives us the law instead of only the law given through many rules.

The law as we think of it today is distorted by the word law, for what scripture says in its beginnings in another language is Torah. Although the word law is right for the word Torah, it is sadly lacking in a complete definition. The word Torah includes the gospel as it is explained in Lev. 17:11, the Lord gave blood on the altar for the atonement of our souls. Christ fulfilled that. So law, in God's eyes, includes the gospel.

We are to check what the Holy Spirit tells us with the word. Otherwise, you can assign ideas that come to us from the flesh as coming from the Holy Spirit. Many of the church councils did that, so some of the doctrines they produced was in error.
 
Jun 11, 2020
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#24
If you can't discern the truth you do not have the spirit of truth and therefore you do not have salvation.
Discerning the truth is a fruit of salvation.
Please do not get deeply taken with a casual passive statement.
Then let the record show that you were asked for a supporting scripture for your doctrine, and you refused. The reason you refused is that there is no scripture to back your statement. You are a bringer of a doctrine not found in scripture - the same thing your OP accuses the brethren of.

Let the record also show that a simple request for a supporting scripture is grounds to accuse an uninformed brother of
  • being unable to discern the truth
  • being unable to discern the truth because he does not have the spirit of truth
  • therefore not having salvation
But what does the bible say of those who did not have the truth? Apollos teaches John's Baptism and not Baptism in the Name of Jesus (Act.18:25). His doctrine causes division in Corinth (1st Cor.1:12). His doctrine causes "believers" and "brethren" at Ephesus to be unable to receive the Holy Spirit (Act.19). That is, his lack of knowledge of the truth caused quite some problems in the Church. But what does the holy Spirit say of him in Acts 18:24-28?
  • a man mighty in scriptures
  • a man instructed in the ways of the Lord
  • a man fervent in spirit
  • a man who spoke and taught diligently the things of the Lord
  • a man who spoke these things boldly in the camp of the enemy
  • a man who the Church urged others to receive him
  • a man who convinced Jews that Jesus was the Christ
You, on the other hand, are unable to bring scripture for your claims, even when asked. You do not instruct men in the ways of the Lord, saying that salvation is based on our "ability". You instruct men that because a man has not the truth he is not saved. And you, when finding a brother who asks to be shown the truth, refuses.

I wonder who is meant in the OP?

Here is the text on how the Holy Spirit saw Apollos - the one who did not have the full truth in Acts 18

24 "And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ."
 

14meatcc

Active member
Feb 17, 2020
154
86
28
San Diego
#25
Watch out not to tear into the foundation, because this is what happens when you begin introducing doubts. What is your proof then, that you are not deceived?

If you say "I am not deceived because I have the spirit of truth", then what if you discerned wrongly, because you claim correct discerning is preeminent to the Spirit?

If you say "I am not deceived because I have discerned the truth correctly", then who is your witness that you have indeed discerned it correctly? Because it's the Spirit that testifies that what one is saying is true. And in case you discerned wrongly, the Spirit of truth which you are deceived to believe you have, is then not there, according to your own words. So with this logic, you have no proof to claim even that you yourself are not presently deceived.

As for me, I believe that we are able to know things by their fruit, and also that we don't ask God for a fish to get a snake.
It's confirmed by the Spirit within me. Wisdom is known of her children. It's the only doctrine thar makes sense and wisdom confirmed.
 

14meatcc

Active member
Feb 17, 2020
154
86
28
San Diego
#26
Then let the record show that you were asked for a supporting scripture for your doctrine, and you refused. The reason you refused is that there is no scripture to back your statement. You are a bringer of a doctrine not found in scripture - the same thing your OP accuses the brethren of.

Let the record also show that a simple request for a supporting scripture is grounds to accuse an uninformed brother of
  • being unable to discern the truth
  • being unable to discern the truth because he does not have the spirit of truth
  • therefore not having salvation
But what does the bible say of those who did not have the truth? Apollos teaches John's Baptism and not Baptism in the Name of Jesus (Act.18:25). His doctrine causes division in Corinth (1st Cor.1:12). His doctrine causes "believers" and "brethren" at Ephesus to be unable to receive the Holy Spirit (Act.19). That is, his lack of knowledge of the truth caused quite some problems in the Church. But what does the holy Spirit say of him in Acts 18:24-28?
  • a man mighty in scriptures
  • a man instructed in the ways of the Lord
  • a man fervent in spirit
  • a man who spoke and taught diligently the things of the Lord
  • a man who spoke these things boldly in the camp of the enemy
  • a man who the Church urged others to receive him
  • a man who convinced Jews that Jesus was the Christ
You, on the other hand, are unable to bring scripture for your claims, even when asked. You do not instruct men in the ways of the Lord, saying that salvation is based on our "ability". You instruct men that because a man has not the truth he is not saved. And you, when finding a brother who asks to be shown the truth, refuses.

I wonder who is meant in the OP?

Here is the text on how the Holy Spirit saw Apollos - the one who did not have the full truth in Acts 18

24 "And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ."
No, my phone screen is cracked and I have a heck of a time typing the correct letters. I will as soon as I can. Sorry
 

14meatcc

Active member
Feb 17, 2020
154
86
28
San Diego
#27
[QUOTE="14meatcc, post: 4399390, member: 294224"
John 14:17, 15:26, 1John 4:6, 5:6, Ephesians 1:13, 5:9 2Thess 2:13, 1peter 1:22
 

14meatcc

Active member
Feb 17, 2020
154
86
28
San Diego
#29
It's confirmed by the Spirit within me. Wisdom is known of her children. It's the only doctrine thar makes sense and wisdom confirmed.
One more thing, since I've opened the bible to study, I only use the KJV or the 1599 Geneva Bible. I have never used commentary, and only use reference bibles. I would roughly guess I've studied around 16-18,000 hours and read and reread, andrereread over and over and over and over again asking only for the truth.
I was having a little spiritual battle about a week ago where I boldly asked God Where are my fruits? How do people know I love you? And how do I glorify you?
He made me wait till that night for a answer, but it was clear.
"You are confident speaking the truth"
I'll take it.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
#30
Watch out not to tear into the foundation, because this is what happens when you begin introducing doubts. What is your proof then, that you are not deceived?

If you say "I am not deceived because I have the spirit of truth", then what if you discerned wrongly, because you claim correct discerning is preeminent to the Spirit?

If you say "I am not deceived because I have discerned the truth correctly", then who is your witness that you have indeed discerned it correctly? Because it's the Spirit that testifies that what one is saying is true. And in case you discerned wrongly, the Spirit of truth which you are deceived to believe you have, is then not there, according to your own words. So with this logic, you have no proof to claim even that you yourself are not presently deceived.

As for me, I believe that we are able to know things by their fruit, and also that we don't ask God for a fish to get a snake.
Our mens bible study just introduced a short reading from emmet fox's sermon on the mount book.
It has me very unsettled.
Do you know anything about him?
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
4,889
2,534
113
#31
Our mens bible study just introduced a short reading from emmet fox's sermon on the mount book.
It has me very unsettled.
Do you know anything about him?
No, I have never heard of him. What is in the sermon?
 
Jun 11, 2020
1,370
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#32
No, my phone screen is cracked and I have a heck of a time typing the correct letters. I will as soon as I can. Sorry
And I would like to apologize for being aggressive. The Lord has spoken to me about my posting, but I can't withdraw it (technically).