When are we saved ?

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throughfaith

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ForestGreenCook said:
Old testament sacrifices never forgave sins. Heb 10:4.
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4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Notice it says " it is not possible.....to take away sins . Remission v redemption.
22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Hebrews 9 is talking about those animal sacrifices
Thats why John the baptist said , " behold the lamb of God who TAKES away the sin of the world . Remission v redemption.
 
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ForestGreenCook

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throughfaith said:
Which we've already established that it was not the case because the Holy Spirit was not given in that way prior to the resurrection. This alone proves Calvinsm is a false system that should be avoided at all costs .
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You might have established that it was not the case in your mind, but not in everyone else's mind.

Aii scriptures must harmonize before you can understand the doctrine that Jesus taught. You cannot just ignore Isaiah 63:11.
 
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throughfaith

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ForestGreenCook said:
You might have established that it was not the case in your mind, but not in everyone else's mind.

Aii scriptures must harmonize before you can understand the doctrine that Jesus taught. You cannot just ignore Isaiah 63:11.
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We've already dealt with Isa 63.11 and the whole of the Old testament where we see the Holy Spirit came UPON and would depart . Then Jesus own words that the Holy Spirit was only given after his glorification. There was no Acts 2 experience in the OT because Jesus had not been glorified yet . We are only begotten again to a lively hope through Jesus s resurrection. Which did not happen in the OT . David prayed not to have the Holy Spirit taken from him . We do not pray that today, because the indwelling of the Holy Spirit happened After the glorification of Jesus, as he said would be the case . You have one unclear text in Isa 63 that the majority of translations agree that its ' them ' among them. But your going to argue calvinsm against scripture on one verse ? in light of all the evidence on the working of the Holy Spirit in both OT and NT . Calvinsm like The Jehovah witnesses has a doctrine first then searches out a vauge passage to validate the system . We have a verse that HARMONISES with the sealing of the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption is a new testament reality only.
 
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throughfaith

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ForestGreenCook said:
You might have established that it was not the case in your mind, but not in everyone else's mind.

Aii scriptures must harmonize before you can understand the doctrine that Jesus taught. You cannot just ignore Isaiah 63:11.
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It really is quite remarkable that calvisnts cannot see the problem. Think of Catholicism. You would agree that here we have a system that claims to be Christian but in its essence is a filter in which one views the bible through the lense of . Catholicism would be a extreme example, ( not to mention seventh day Adventists , Mormons and Jehovah's_Witnesses ect ) But to a lesser degree we see churches who are viewing the bible through the teachings of men that have established the denomination . Some bible studies will of course go through a study on there favourite theologian. We recognise the problems with commentaries having bias and those headings in our bibles written to help us understand the overview also are not inspired . Amazingly with Calvinism this all goes out the window. With some calvinists going so far to say Jesus was a good calvinist . And that Calvinism IS the Gospel. That its just called calvinism but its really just bible. Discernment has left the building. In no other capacity would we say such silly things about a theological world view and system. But here it is , its happened. We have right in our midst , a system claiming itself to be Christian but actually is against the very Gospel itself . Its a system that is of no use to the lost and seeks mainly to convert the already saved . We should be astounded that such a system has managed to persuade itself into christianity and actually is aggressively seeking to dominate christianity. Because we don't want to upset anyone and we should all just get along .
 
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ForestGreenCook

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throughfaith said:
Which verses ?
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Jesus's faith ; Gai 2L16, Eph 2:8, faith of Jesus, Acts 3:16, Acts 6:7, Acts 26:18, Rom 3:3, Rom 3:22,

Our faith; Matt 9:22, Matt 9:29, Matt 15:28, Matt 21:21, Matt 2:5, Luke 18:4

Saved, salvation, save, according to Strong's means; delivered, deliverance, deliver.

Many times these words are used as being delivered from things of the world as we sojourn here in this world, and does not convey eternal deliverance, such as Acts 27:31, except ye abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved. This does not mean that they cannot be delivered eternally. unless they abide in the ship.

Unless these words are properly divided, they will tend to teach that a person has to take some kind of action to be saved (delivered), eternally, which would be eternal deliverance by our good works.
 
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ForestGreenCook

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throughfaith said:
It really is quite remarkable that calvisnts cannot see the problem. Think of Catholicism. You would agree that here we have a system that claims to be Christian but in its essence is a filter in which one views the bible through the lense of . Catholicism would be a extreme example, ( not to mention seventh day Adventists , Mormons and Jehovah's_Witnesses ect ) But to a lesser degree we see churches who are viewing the bible through the teachings of men that have established the denomination . Some bible studies will of course go through a study on there favourite theologian. We recognise the problems with commentaries having bias and those headings in our bibles written to help us understand the overview also are not inspired . Amazingly with Calvinism this all goes out the window. With some calvinists going so far to say Jesus was a good calvinist . And that Calvinism IS the Gospel. That its just called calvinism but its really just bible. Discernment has left the building. In no other capacity would we say such silly things about a theological world view and system. But here it is , its happened. We have right in our midst , a system claiming itself to be Christian but actually is against the very Gospel itself . Its a system that is of no use to the lost and seeks mainly to convert the already saved . We should be astounded that such a system has managed to persuade itself into christianity and actually is aggressively seeking to dominate christianity. Because we don't want to upset anyone and we should all just get along .
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As I have told you many times, I have never read the writings of John Calvin, but have heard you, and others, make statements about what he believes. I believe, from what I have heard, that he misinterprets some of the scriptures. I have also told you that the scriptures are my only source of gleaning the truth of what Jesus taught. and that scripture proves scripture.

I understand from information that has been given me, that all of the different denominations evolved from the reformation period of the 1500's. To my understanding, the church that Jesus Christ set up was never a part of the Roman Catholic church, but was severely persecuted by the RCC, along with Saul, before he became Paul.

I do believe, according to the scriptures, that the denominations who are worshiping God falsely, are regenerated children of God. This harmonizes with the wheel within a wheel (the invisible church, and the visible church), in Ezk. 10, which also harmonizes with Matt 7
about the two gates.

1 Pet 1:15, be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear.
 
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ForestGreenCook

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throughfaith said:
And 45 ? It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
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The key to this verse is; every man that hath heard, and learned. The only people that can hear and understand are God's sheep (his regenerated children). Not every man of the human race, and especially, not of the natural man, who thinks the things of the Spirit are foolishness.
 
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ForestGreenCook

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GraceAndTruth said:
Explain to me what "two different deliverances" is about.
As I understand deliverance, it is to be delivered from the punishment of our sin (by the blood of Christ)
So is eternal deliverance for time and eternity or just for eternity, so how does time fit in?
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Read post #1889
 
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throughfaith

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ForestGreenCook said:
Jesus's faith ; Gai 2L16, Eph 2:8, faith of Jesus, Acts 3:16, Acts 6:7, Acts 26:18, Rom 3:3, Rom 3:22,

Our faith; Matt 9:22, Matt 9:29, Matt 15:28, Matt 21:21, Matt 2:5, Luke 18:4

Saved, salvation, save, according to Strong's means; delivered, deliverance, deliver.

Many times these words are used as being delivered from things of the world as we sojourn here in this world, and does not convey eternal deliverance, such as Acts 27:31, except ye abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved. This does not mean that they cannot be delivered eternally. unless they abide in the ship.

Unless these words are properly divided, they will tend to teach that a person has to take some kind of action to be saved (delivered), eternally, which would be eternal deliverance by our good works.
Click to expand...
Gal 3 .26¶For ye are all the children of God BY faith IN Christ Jesus.

But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, HIS faith is credited as
 
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throughfaith

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ForestGreenCook said:
The key to this verse is; every man that hath heard, and learned. The only people that can hear and understand are God's sheep (his regenerated children). Not every man of the human race, and especially, not of the natural man, who thinks the things of the Spirit are foolishness.
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inductive reasoning.
 
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peldom10

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OIC1965 said:
2 Timothy 1:9 says we are already saved. Other places do too
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If you are relying on those to support your position...then follow thru and explain saved on earth and judged after death?
Are you suggesting God does not have the power to reverse/modify/amend/concur in saved status after His Judgement?
That's why scriptures tells us we are born again while on this earth. Yes the Bible speaks of being saved but that must be kept in context.
 
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throughfaith

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peldom10 said:
If you are relying on those to support your position...then follow thru and explain saved on earth and judged after death?
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Were Justified , declared righteousness, redeemed , Forgiven , saved from the Penalty of sin , reconciled, predestined to the future adoption , sanctified , seated in heavenly places in Christ, accepted in the beloved , Regenerated , a son , a child of God through the new birth , sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, blessed with all spiritual blessings in Christ Jesus ...and on and on and on ....
 
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peldom10

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throughfaith said:
Were Justified , declared righteousness, redeemed , Forgiven , saved from the Penalty of sin , reconciled, predestined to the future adoption , sanctified , seated in heavenly places in Christ, accepted in the beloved , Regenerated , a son , a child of God through the new birth , sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, blessed with all spiritual blessings in Christ Jesus ...and on and on and on ....
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Correct that as a result of being .....born again.

Sav...ed means history, can't be changed, etc...yet we face God's judgement.
Please explain.
 
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throughfaith

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peldom10 said:
Correct that as a result of being .....born again.

Sav...ed means history, can't be changed, etc...yet we face God's judgement.
Please explain.
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A believer will not face Judgment at the great white throne . The Gospel is good news .
 
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OIC1965

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throughfaith said:
Pre conversion work ? see now how words matter. Thats extra baggage . The Holy Spirit Convicts the world of the things specifically mentioned in John 16 . which is to EVERYONE . Why not just simply leave it at what the verses ACTUALLY say ?.
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Did the Spirit convict you before you believed? If yes, that is a preconversion work of the Spirit.
 
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OIC1965

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peldom10 said:
If you are relying on those to support your position...then follow thru and explain saved on earth and judged after death?
Are you suggesting God does not have the power to reverse/modify/amend/concur in saved status after His Judgement?
That's why scriptures tells us we are born again while on this earth. Yes the Bible speaks of being saved but that must be kept in context.
Click to expand...
Please see John 5:24
 
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ForestGreenCook

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throughfaith said:
Gal 3 .26¶For ye are all the children of God BY faith IN Christ Jesus.

But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, HIS faith is credited as
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Who is the "all" in Gal 3:26? Paul is talking about himself and unto the churches of Galatia.

If you are still trying to include the unregenerate natural man into this scripture, he will not fit.
 
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