Discussion on the End Times

[Absolutely]

Truth7t7:

Let me make a couple of my positions clear. I may have mis-spoke so I do not want you to define my beliefs for me.
early date for Revelation
'great trib' prophecy fulfilled 66-mid 70AD...lasting 3 1/2 years
temple destroyed
time of silence
Jesus comes for His beloved at the LAST trump, (of those 7 trumps)
The earth is destoyed immediately after by intense heat.

I've never heard of the AHmillenial position....is that where everyone reads Revelation and says aHHHHH. [in your typo at top of your post]

We disagree on a lot. Like everything.

Antiochus, Horn, Perdtion, Beast, Antichrist.....and so on.
Antiochus Epiphanes Profaned the Temple, December 16, 156 BC
You have no idea what I believe......Amillenian says there is NO millenial reign.
That is what the A stand for.....zero/nada/none as in amoral means no morals

Amillennialism belief is that we are in the mil.
""What is Amillennialism?
Amillennialism is actually misnamed. The ‘a’ at the beginning means ‘no’, indicating the proponents of this position believe there will be no millennial reign. But that is not accurate. A better title would be something like ‘realized millennialism’, indicating that we are currently in the millennium.
Amillennialism is not new. Many throughout the history of the church have held it. And by the time of Augustine, it had become the dominant view of the church. ""

 

[Truth7t7]

The millennial period will be a literal thousand years, which will begin when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.

We will strongly disagree with your claim of Jesus Christ returning to earth, and hanging out with mortal humans in a proclaimed Millennium?

Jesus Christ warned his followers against this false teaching.

Jesus Christ wont be found any place on this earth.

(Go Not Forth) (Believe It Not)

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

The problem with your claim of the great tribulation already taking place in 66-70 ad is that, there is zero fulfillment of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which must take place before the Lord can return to the earth to end the age. Below is what the Lord inserts at the pouring out of the sixth bowl judgment:

"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed"

In Matthew 24 Jesus also gave the readers proof of how to tell the false Messiah's that people would claim are out in the desert or in a secret room when He said, "Just as the lightning that shines in the east can be seen in the west, so also shall the coming of the Son of Man be." We know from Matt.24:30 that the people of the earth will see the Lord arriving on the clouds with power and great glory. This is how the people of the earth will know the difference between the false Messiah's and the the true Messiah. All that said, to claim that the Lord came and ended the age in 70 AD would go directly against Jesus warning about false Messiah's.

In addition, John was banished to the island of Patmos during the reign of Domian who ruled from 81 to 96 AD, which would put the writing of Revelation taking place within those dates and which would make the events of Revelation future events, not past events.



Your identifying the "half an hour of silence" as representing when Jesus comes for church, is based on pure conjecture. For there is nothing that ties that half hour of silence to the event of Jesus gathering His church.

Also, the reference to the "Last Trump" which Paul mentions in I Corinthians 15:52 regarding the gathering of the church, has nothing to do with the trumpet judgments. The "last trumpet" is a blessing for those in Christ who are alive at the time when He gathers His church, where the seven trumpets are part of God's wrath. What you are doing is erroneously interpreting the "Last trumpet" in I Corinthians 15:52 and linking it to the angel with the seventh trumpet of those trumpet judgments.

I is obvious that you have been reading the false teachings men on this subject, for we have seen these teaching over and over again which basically comes from Amillennialists and mostly from full Preterists.

You are correct in that Antiochus Epiphanes desecrated the temple in 156 BC. However, this cannot be referring to the abomination of desolation, because Jesus spoke of it as a future event, not past. What Antiochus did is a shadow of what the coming antichrist is going to do when he has that image set up in the future temple.

The millennial period will be a literal thousand years, which will begin when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. It has nothing to do with "no morals." It means 'no thousand years.' Yet, Revelation mentions "a thousand years" six times from verses 1 thru 7 in chapter 20. Since the context refers to it as being a literal thousand years, there is no reason to interpret it as being symbolic or allegorical. For scripture states that Satan will be bound in the Abyss for a thousand years, that he will not be able to deceive the3 nations during that thousand years and that he will be released at the end of the thousand years. And the great tribulation saints who are resurrected will rule with Jesus during that thousand years. Therefore it is a literal thousand year period. To interpret it otherwise is to distort the scripture.

Because scripture states that believers within the church are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath or any wrath, the church must then be gathered prior to the opening of the first seal which initiates God's wrath. Rev.4:1 is a prophetic allusion to when the church is gathered in the chronological order of Revelation.

I would share my view with you but you seem to have your feet bolted to the floor on this subject. I'm not looking for arguments.

 

[Truth7t7]

I would share my view with you but you seem to have your feet bolted to the floor on this subject. I'm not looking for arguments.

I don't regard your views as a matter of salvation, present your views and pull out the sword of the word in defense.

Just because we disagree, it isn't a life or death situation, sharpen that sword for its use in battle

Explain your belief in the two olive Trees and lamp stands?

 

[Absolutely]

I took some of your post out to save space.......your full post is where is always has been

Read my posts #209 and #210 I ANSWERED ALL YOUR QUESTIONS AND THEN SOME. You will only disagree with everything so there is no point. I have historical evidence for every woe. I was thinking that if I answer any more of your posts it will be "woe is me"

I have never heard a viable explanation for the flying scorpions and hailstones of fire.
Nor any explanation for the mark and all taking it or put it death.
Nor any prohibition for buying/selling with out it.
That is significant.

Plus,after the mil,satan unchained for a season to gather another army for another final battle.
How do you reconcile all that?
And is satan now chained?

 

[Absolutely]

I would share my view with you but you seem to have your feet bolted to the floor on this subject. I'm not looking for arguments.

It is just a discussion.
As long as no name calling/juvenile personal attacks are invoked, our positions can be aired out.

Truth 7 hasn't gotten the memo.....ignore becomes your friend.

 

[Absolutely]

I just noticed this about the "seventh/last trump" doctrine.

Rev 11 has the 7th trump blown during the gt.

Then heaven makes a 2 or so chapter declaration.

THEN rev 15 starts with the LAST PLAGUES.

That means the 7th trump deal is doa.

See this is the problem with basing a doctrine on cherry picked verses.

The seventh trump angel sounds DURING THE TRIB,BEFORE THE LAST PLAGUES.

Rev 15
1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God

 

[Absolutely]

Amillennialism belief is that we are in the mil.
""What is Amillennialism?
Amillennialism is actually misnamed. The ‘a’ at the beginning means ‘no’, indicating the proponents of this position believe there will be no millennial reign. But that is not accurate. A better title would be something like ‘realized millennialism’, indicating that we are currently in the millennium.
Amillennialism is not new. Many throughout the history of the church have held it. And by the time of Augustine, it had become the dominant view of the church. ""

The reason they thought it, was the prism was different/clouded.

We have a much better prism now.

Remember israel was scattered and no more a nation. So that prompted error in their view.

I would have had to struggle with Hitler being antichrist had I lived in that era.
We are in a much better time frame to discern.
Historicist view is ironically taken out as viable by history.

 

[Absolutely]

I thought that you meant that your 'revelatory information' was some esoteric message gleaned by you out of the atmosphere.
Anyway your misconceptions are not my problem.
Of course the scriptures are discerned by the Holy Spirit.
1 Cor 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

Does not exclude the fact that ,if requested,you should happily defend your position.

Challenges seem to throw you off.

Btw,taking a position against discernment is ,ironically,a red flag.

 

[SoulWeaver]

It is just a discussion.
As long as no name calling/juvenile personal attacks are invoked, our positions can be aired out.

I tried to say this in another thread I opened, since how people imagine the future isn't a central teaching or a salvation issue in any way imo, guess what happened, it turned into bashing amillennialism and dispensationalists claiming people weren't saved, cardinal give the rack a turn, etc... I think this has a Streisand effect though and it will backlash severely, you cannot control peoples' minds for ever and tell them what they "must" think.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

I have never heard a viable explanation for the flying scorpions and hailstones of fire.
Nor any explanation for the mark and all taking it or put it death.
Nor any prohibition for buying/selling with out it.
That is significant.

Plus,after the mil,satan unchained for a season to gather another army for another final battle.
How do you reconcile all that?
And is satan now chained?

So much of Revelation is imagery and not to be taken literally. Such is 'hailstones weighing about 100 lbs." The image is to present a picture that represents an action or a feeling, a circumstance.......the text is the key to what the image is meant to convey. In the case of hailstones it is meant to bring an image in your mind of destruction. (example: When the bible says 'the trees clapped their hands' it does not mean that trees have hands to clap but it represents a feeling of joy.)

The 'mark' is figurative....a spiritual mark. The mark is for the unsaved man just as the 'seal' is for God's people.

Satan has been chained from deceiving the nations. In other words he cannot thwart the spreading of the gospel.
He will be released to once again deceive and antichrists will flourish.......then comes his final judgement at the end.
(thousand is translated from the word chilias which means more than one whereas chiloi would have indicated a single thousand.)

My eschatology is Amillenianism. Basically hold that all prophecy is fulfilled except the 2nd coming of Christ for His bride and then the earth is destroyed. We are in the millenium and have been since the tribulation of the Jewish Wars. I would guess that your view is of a future trib and millenial reign of Christ on earth?

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Does not exclude the fact that ,if requested,you should happily defend your position.

Challenges seem to throw you off.

Btw,taking a position against discernment is ,ironically,a red flag.

I have no position against discernment.......I count it as one of my gifts.
I answered all your questions today as I had time.
Challenge away, but keep the snotty analyzing of me out of it....you don't know anything about me.
If my posts were read more carefully...........

 

[GraceAndTruth]

I don't regard your views as a matter of salvation, present your views and pull out the sword of the word in defense.

Just because we disagree, it isn't a life or death situation, sharpen that sword for its use in battle

Explain your belief in the two olive Trees and lamp stands?

YOU are relentless.
My view of the olive trees and lampstands
olive trees cultivated olive = Jews
wild olive = Gentiles
'those who have been grafted together as the church.
lampstands ministers of truth and the scriptures

I wonder if you forget that Revelation is mostly symbolism and allegory means to convey John's message in 'code' to the churches.

 

[Truth7t7]

I tried to say this in another thread I opened, since how people imagine the future isn't a central teaching or a salvation issue in any way imo, guess what happened, it turned into bashing amillennialism and dispensationalists claiming people weren't saved, cardinal give the rack a turn, etc... I think this has a Streisand effect though and it will backlash severely, you cannot control peoples' minds for ever and tell them what they "must" think.

I believe your the (Full Preterist) that denies a future second coming of Jesus Christ, and a future bodily resurrection of the saved believer, correct me if I'm wrong?

 

[Truth7t7]

YOU are relentless.
My view of the olive trees and lampstands
olive trees cultivated olive = Jews
wild olive = Gentiles
'those who have been grafted together as the church.
lampstands ministers of truth and the scriptures

I wonder if you forget that Revelation is mostly symbolism and allegory means to convey John's message in 'code' to the churches.

Thanks for your response

You have given your explanation concerning the (Two Witnesses) as seen in Revelation Chapter 11, that you described as symbolic of the two olive trees and lampstands, I fully understand your typical (Historicist) response in symbolism, no further explanation is needed.

Rev Chapter 11 has more description surrounding these (Two Witnesses) that need an explanation, your teaching and belief Leaves these questions (Unanswered)?

1.) Below in Rev 11:3-15 we see the two witnesses having power over plagues, it mentions (Rain) and (Waters) to blood, just like in Egypt, how do you explain this?

2.)It mentions these two witnesses having bodies that are killed, laying in a street, it mentions a world watching, sending gifts one to another, how do you explain this?

Revelation 11:3-15KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Thanks for your response

You have given your explanation concerning the (Two Witnesses) as seen in Revelation Chapter 11, that you described as symbolic of the two olive trees and lampstands, I fully understand your typical (Historicist) response in symbolism, no further explanation is needed.

Rev Chapter 11 has more description surrounding these (Two Witnesses) that need an explanation, your teaching and belief Leaves these questions (Unanswered)?

1.) Below in Rev 11:3-15 we see the two witnesses having power over plagues, it mentions (Rain) and (Waters) to blood, just like in Egypt, how do you explain this?

2.)It mentions these two witnesses having bodies that are killed, laying in a street, it mentions a world watching, sending gifts one to another, how do you explain this?

Revelation 11:3-15KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

And I do not need your LENGTHY explantions of why you believe what you believe. Nor do I care.
Literal?

 

[Absolutely]

I tried to say this in another thread I opened, since how people imagine the future isn't a central teaching or a salvation issue in any way imo, guess what happened, it turned into bashing amillennialism and dispensationalists claiming people weren't saved, cardinal give the rack a turn, etc... I think this has a Streisand effect though and it will backlash severely, you cannot control peoples' minds for ever and tell them what they "must" think.

Streisand effect

I will use that one.
Too funny

Great post as usual

 

[Truth7t7]

And I do not need your LENGTHY explantions of why you believe what you believe. Nor do I care.
Literal?

I followed the false teachings in dispensationalism for 20 years, and I was challenged just as you are, I was unable to give a response when questioned just as you.

You have clearly been shown the false claims found in the (Historicist) teachings.

1.) The late date of Revelation, with Iranaeus clearly stating the (Vison) was seen in the reign of Emperor Domitian 81-96AD, that renders a pre 70AD claim false.

2.) You have been shown in Matthew Chapter 24:21 it's (Impossible) to have a 66-70AD Great Tribulation, with (Historicism) falsely teaching that the (Second Coming) seen in Matthew 24:29-30 has been 1950+ years and waiting, with the words below destroying this false teaching.

(Immediately After The Tribulation Of Those Days)

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

3.) You Falsely believe and teach that Daniel's Abomination Of Desolation as seen in Matthew 24:15 took place in 167BC with Antiochus Epiphanies sacrificing a pig on the temple altar?

This claim is 100% incorrect, as Matthew writes 200+ years (After) in Matthew 24:15 (When Ye Therefore Shall See) a future event from his writing unfulfilled.

Matthew 24:15KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

 

[Absolutely]

""The 'mark' is figurative....a spiritual mark. The mark is for the unsaved man just as the 'seal' is for God's people.""

Not biblical
It says "right hand/forehead "
It says those refusing die.
It says those with it get sores as it festers in their skin.
It says with out it they can not shop or sell.

There is zero there to make it spiritual.

But the clincher is.....it NEVER HAPPENED HISTORICALLY.

 

[Absolutely]

I have never heard a viable explanation for the flying scorpions and hailstones of fire.
Nor any explanation for the mark and all taking it or put it death.

like I said
where in history are the flying scorpions?

the mark?

I'll wait