When are we saved ?
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Ok let's go crazy and say that only those that Father dragged to Jesus came to Jesus. What happens after the cross negates all of that .Would they have been able to come to Jesus had the Father not drawn them? John 6:44
And did they figure out that Jesus was the Messiah all by their lonesome? Did flesh and blood reveal it? Or did the Father reveal it?
The Father revealed it. So was the Father revealing to them the true identity of the Son before they believed an act of prevenient grace?
I think your confused about what happened at the cross, the resurrection and the giving of the Holy Spirit. it sounds like all these facts are just incidental occurrences.Is coming to Jesus the same as faith in Jesus? Yes or no.
Ok let's go crazy and say that only those that Father dragged to Jesus came to Jesus. What happens after the cross negates all of that .
Before we go there...why were they unable to come? Because God prevented them or because they prevented themselves?
I think your confused about what happened at the cross, the resurrection and the giving of the Holy Spirit. it sounds like all these facts are just incidental occurrences.
Please reply to post 1764.
I think your confused about what happened at the cross, the resurrection and the giving of the Holy Spirit. it sounds like all these facts are just incidental occurrences.
is coming to Jesus the same as faith in Jesus? Yes or no?
If drawing by the father was a prerequisite before the cross then they could only come if he was drawing . The better questions are 1) what way was he drawing ( verse 45 helps )Before we go there...why were they unable to come? Because God prevented them or because they prevented themselves?
2) Did he draw anyone?
3) Did they believe Jesus when they were drawn to him ? Maybe only those that believed were the only ones raised ?
4 ) It says they CAN come if they are drawn. As its apparent that they all left Jesus what does this tell us ?
Then read John 12 which refutes all gnostic conclusions about John 6 ..
No . There were some that came to Jesus for food .The pharisees came to him to question him .is coming to Jesus the same as faith in Jesus? Yes or no?
is coming to Jesus the same as faith in Jesus? Yes or no?
1. No man could come to Jesus unless the Father drew them.
2. Coming to Jesus was synomous with faith in Jesus
3. A necessary work of God before one could be able to believe/come th Jesus
Prevenient Grace v
No . There were some that came to Jesus for food .The pharisees came to him to question him .
You are incorrect. Read John 6:35 and note the parallelism there.
They were saved by following what God told them to believe and follow by their faith . Hab 2. 4Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.But they were saved by the hope of redemption promised before by the prophets in the Holy Scriptures. Romans 1:1-2. Luke 2:38
We look back with a full picture and full revelation given ( The complete Bible) and all mysteries revealed . This is were we hear silly things like " oh they were looking forward to the cross " nonsense.
You think everyone that followed Jesus around and ate with him and watched his miraclesYou are incorrect. Read John 6:35 and note the parallelism there.
Like the rich young ruler who CAME RUNNING AND KNELT BEFORE JESUS CALLING HIM MASTER ?1. No man could come to Jesus unless the Father drew them.
2. Coming to Jesus was synomous with faith in Jesus
3. A necessary work of God before one could be able to believe/come th Jesus
Prevenient Grace v
You believe in TOTAL inability right ? Because I'm not seeing a response to scripture but a response to the doctrine of T .1. No man could come to Jesus unless the Father drew them.
2. Coming to Jesus was synomous with faith in Jesus
3. A necessary work of God before one could be able to believe/come th Jesus
Prevenient Grace v
If drawing by the father was a prerequisite before the cross then they could only come if he was drawing . The better questions are 1) what way was he drawing ( verse 45 helps )
2) Did he draw anyone?
3) Did they believe Jesus when they were drawn to him ? Maybe only those that believed were the only ones raised ?
4 ) It says they CAN come if they are drawn. As its apparent that they all left Jesus what does this tell us ?
Then read John 12 which refutes all gnostic conclusions about John 6 ..
A. If Jesus said “ no one could come unless drawn” it is clear that people were being drawn to Him, not nevessarily here, but in His lifetime. Because people did come
B. Those who were drawn believed. John 6;44-45
C. It does not say specifically they can come if drawn. What it says is they cannot come if not drawn.
What was keeping them from coming? I say their blindness caused by unbelief and sin. What do you say?
You think everyone that followed Jesus around and ate with him and watched his miracles
Like the rich young ruler who CAME RUNNING AND KNELT BEFORE JESUS CALLING HIM MASTER ?
A. Do you think hunger and thirst in John 6:35 is talking about literal hunger and thirst?!!!
B. A lot of people now and pay lip service that have no real faith.
When Jesus says He will draw ALL men to him . Shouldn't this make you realise that drawing is not what saves . Its not causing people to believe when drawn . Try ' Attract ' instead.1. No man could come to Jesus unless the Father drew them.
2. Coming to Jesus was synomous with faith in Jesus
3. A necessary work of God before one could be able to believe/come th Jesus
Prevenient Grace v
You believe in TOTAL inability right ? Because I'm not seeing a response to scripture but a response to the doctrine of T .
Is the not being able the same as inability. ( John 6:44)
It doesn't say that they believed. The evidence is they all fled in unbelief ..They all left Jesus save a few . If you stick to all that were drawn by the father believed and remained with Jesus . then it surely follows when Jesus says he will draw ALL men then universalism must be true ?A. If Jesus said “ no one could come unless drawn” it is clear that people were being drawn to Him, not nevessarily here, but in His lifetime. Because people did come
B. Those who were drawn believed. John 6;44-45
C. It does not say specifically they can come if drawn. What it says is they cannot come if not drawn.
What was keeping them from coming? I say their blindness caused by unbelief and sin. What do you say?
When Jesus says He will draw ALL men to him . Shouldn't this make you realise that drawing is not what saves . Its not causing people to believe when drawn . Try ' Attract ' instead.
I suppose Jesus is drawing all men to Him because otherwise they would not be able to come if He didn’t. For the same reason the Jews in chapter 6 were unable to come, and the same reason the rich young ruler was unwilling to come, and the same reason Jesus said “ with men, impossible, but with God all things are possible
How on earth are you missing the point that the Young ruler DID come to Jesus. He didn't send an email. He actually came to Jesus RUNNING . And kneeling . We can't physically come to Jesus today. But He did come. Did he believe? Did he follow ?I suppose Jesus is drawing all men to Him because otherwise they would not be able to come if He didn’t. For the same reason the Jews in chapter 6 were unable to come, and the same reason the rich young ruler was unwilling to come, and the same reason Jesus said “ with men, impossible, but with God all things are possible