Today’s church’s misunderstandings

[Lion222]

Bear the guilt is not in the origional text, you need to find a different bible

he said, if we claim to be without sin we decieve ourselves,

he follows this up,by saying when we sin we have an advocate.

nice try though

The word in the original text based on insight from recently available non biblical texts from the time period as well as its usage in the rest of the book of John make clear that it is used of a present state resulting from previous action.

With a proper understanding of a previously known to be difficult to translate passage verse is no longer out of agreement with the rest of the book of John and the rest of the word of God.

Have a nice day.

 

[Lion222]

fixed it for ya LOL!

what translation is that? we can't bear the guilt. we would die

It says if you deny you do not bear the guilt of sin you are a liar
Saying it is an invalid excuse of to say you are not guilty when you are guilty of sin.
Bit the translation missed the mark
Taking the present tense for a word who meaning includes a present tense state of a past tense action and turned it into a present tense continued behavior
Actively sinning continually. Then some people who desire an excuse for not taking up there cross and following Christ made a doctrine out of one verse. Then they use it to deny the call to cleansed from all sin, all unrighteousness and begin to live the rest of their lives for the glory of God instead of glorying in their shame.

It provided the excuse they desired to continue in their sin and confess they know God.
But Johns whole argument is just the opposite.
This verses mistranslated stand is stark opposition to the rest of the book of John.
You would have to close one eye complacently and squint really really hard with the other to see the mistranslated "if you say you have no sin you are a liar" in unity with the context of the rest of the book of John.

 

[Happy2020]

Yeshua, Jesus did not came to abolish theTorah, (the law) but to complete it.
The old ways of sacrifice no longer exist. That was done away with, only that. The Shabbat, Sabbath, remains to be remembered for Adonai, God created the heavens and the earth in six days and rested on the seventh.


The Shabbat, Sabbath, is to honor Adonai, God, and his creation. In the Jewish traditions, there are different types of Shabbat, Sabbath. That's just a for your information. The Jewish religious tradition is very complicated.

The Jewish sacrifices that were performed originally, were for accidental transgressions.
There weren't any forms of sacrifice for sins that done purposely. The sacrifices only covered sins that were not intentional. There were no forms of atonement for intentional sin. Yeshua, Jesus, was and is, the only sacrifice that covers intentional sin. This is the Jewish custom of sacrifice that no one in the church teaches and makes clear why Yeshua, Jesus is so important. However, one must also repent and turn from their sin as Yeshua, Jesus as stated in the Bible. It is not enough to be covered by His sacrifice. One must turn and sin no more and obey Adonai, God's word willingly and freely. "Take up your cross and follow Me", He said.

This is from the Complete Jewish Bible, version. The translations are from the Hebrew customs and times. It is the most accurate that I've seen.

Interesting take. There are 613 Bibilcal Commands. I am interested how you you got to erasing 612 perfect laws by a perfect G-d (Psalms 19:8-12) and kept one? Most Christians think the law only means (animal sacrifices). Actualy animal sacrifices ended in 70 AD when the 2nd Temple was destroyed by Rome. By a chain of command, no Temple, no Priests, No Priests, No Animal sacrifices. Now there are still hundreds of perfect laws like: be fruitful and multiple, return lost items, do not charge interest, dozens of laws on intimate relationships, laws on tithing...were these all gone?

Btw, CJB is a good version, hang on to it!

 

[Lion222]

Interesting take. There are 613 Bibilcal Commands. I am interested how you you got to erasing 612 perfect laws by a perfect G-d (Psalms 19:8-12) and kept one? Most Christians think the law only means (animal sacrifices). Actualy animal sacrifices ended in 70 AD when the 2nd Temple was destroyed by Rome. By a chain of command, no Temple, no Priests, No Priests, No Animal sacrifices. Now there are still hundreds of perfect laws like: be fruitful and multiple, return lost items, do not charge interest, dozens of laws on intimate relationships, laws on tithing...were these all gone?

Btw, CJB is a good version, hang on to it!

The law is perfect.
But perfect for what?
It made nothing perfect.
It made sin worse, more sinful exposing it.
Condemning everyone who sins or ever sinned.
It is against you and it comes with a curse.
It only has power over the living.
It is unlawful to apply it to those who have died in Christ.

But then their is the perfect law of liberty.
A law of keeping ones own conscience towards God.
A law of love where sin is unbelief in the love of God.

 

[Happy2020]

The law is perfect.
But perfect for what?
It made nothing perfect.
It made sin worse, more sinful exposing it.
Condemning everyone who sins or ever sinned.
It is against you and it comes with a curse.
It only has power over the living.
It is unlawful to apply it to those who have died in Christ.

But then their is the perfect law of liberty.
A law of keeping ones own conscience towards God.
A law of love where sin is unbelief in the love of God.

Hi there Lion. Could you tell me why our Perfect Loving Father, would make a trap for humanity? That's pretty evil no? Or maybe we should learn to be humble, realize we are human and realize how much wisdom there is learn before we speak?

 

[Lion222]

Hi there Lion. Could you tell me why our Perfect Loving Father, would make a trap for humanity? That's pretty evil no? Or maybe we should learn to be humble, realize we are human and realize how much wisdom there is learn before we speak?

How does it go?
Teacher do you not teach thyself?

Why a trap, why a stumbling stone and a rock of offense?
Why is it that Dan shall be a serpent in the way, a viper by the path, that bites the horse’s heels so that his rider falls backward”
Because the way is wide that leads to destruction and the rider is riding headlong into sin and death.
It is a mercy to be caught by the law and trapped in the reality of your sin fullness and face your desperate need for a Savour.

That is the function of the letter of the law, every jot and every tittle.
To bring you face to face with the holiness of God and your coming condemnation.
To cause us to stumble and be broken to pieces that way the stone does not land on us later and crush us to dust.

 

[oldethennew]

???

 

[mustaphadrink]

I haven't done any research on the subject but I know some believe it was on saturday as well, to know for sure we have to look at the jewish feast days and when they land on the calendar. Pentecost is 50 days from the day Jesus rose from the dead but that also is a fickle holiday as it depends on the lunar cycle on which day Pentecost offically begins

I have done the research Blain, a heck of a lot of it. Even wrote a paper for a Ph.D on the subject, but as we know, some people disdain study and education and much prefer to make wild guesses to proclaim to all and sundry regardless of whether it is true or not.

I love church history and that is one subject that I studied copiously for, so here is the gist of it......

The New Testament Church (NTC) always met from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown. Due mainly to the fact that the original church was Jewish known as The Way, and considered a sect of Judaism meaning there were no Christians in the church. They were Jews and did not stop being Jews after the New Birth invaded their lives. They took on the sayings of Jesus, cared for one another, fed each other, rejoiced in the fact that Jesus had risen, and showed what a great life he had provided for them.

Women, in particular, benefited from all this as if you were widowed you were on your own. Not in The Way as they cared for them, plus they did not suffer the ignominy of having someone else choose their husband for them. The Way considered that was God's responsibility and all they did was give it the OK.

It wasn't until Acts 15 in Antioch that they broke away from the normal Jewish way of life for the church. And at no time did they meet in a public building. They met in homes for the purpose of the four pillars of the church which were the apostles teaching, fellowship, prayer, and eating meals together. That is what breaking of bread meant. The meals were provided every day as there were a lot of their members that were poor or slaves so they did not eat well. This meal made up for that fact. To have given them a sip of wine and a piece of bread would have been an insult.

There are a couple of hundred pages I could write on the subject but that will suffice for now. If you want to know more read my thread "Do you want to belong to a New Testament Church."

 

[mustaphadrink]

first day of the week it's in the word of God

on ‘the first day of the week’ as the day on which Jesus rose from the dead.” Mark 16:2, Luke 24:1, John 20:1, Matthew 28:1, Mark 16:9–20 and John 20:19

Actually, it is not. The original Greek interpreted the first day of the week is in actual fact one of the sabbaths (Saturday).

 

[Nehemiah6]

The original Greek interpreted the first day of the week is in actual fact one of the sabbaths (Saturday).

This is PATENTLY FALSE. The first day of the week is called "the morrow after the sabbath". And it applied to both the Feast of First Fruits (which prefigured the resurrection of Christ) and the Feast of Pentecost (which prefigured the harvest of souls after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit).

The first day of the week is called "the Lord's Day" (Rev 1:10) in Scripture since it is distinct from the 7th day sabbath. It is in fact the 8th day of the week, and the number 8 stands for a New Creation. Thus circumcision was to be done on the 8th day. However the Lord's Day signifies that (1) the Lord rose again on the first day of the week, and thereby established His Lordship over not only the power of death, but the entire universe. Thus the Lord's death is remembered in the Lord's Supper, which is set upon the Lord's Table on the first day of the week (when the disciples met to "Break Bread").

 

[Blik]

???

It is so simple a wee child can understand. Adam and Eve let loose the sin that kills us so we cannot live in eternity. The law (or rather the Torah as God calls it) explains that sin that kills.

Immediately God gave us a way to handle that, God gave blood on the altar for the atonement of our souls. Leviticus tells of all the sins that were given up by man, and the blood of animals symbolized that blood that God gave in Christ. Christ perfectly this, all the saints that had slept woke up and walked the streets of Jerusalem and is told in Matthews.

Our sins are wiped out, gone from us, through giving them to Christ for forgiveness, and we are to walk in righteousness. God forgives when we fail, it is only asked that we give our will to live in righteousness.

 

[Blik]

f The word of God says Jesus rose on the " First day of the week". .

Scripture tells us it was discovered that Christ had already risen, the discovery was made on the the first day. If you are sure scripture states that Christ rose on the first day of the week instead of it being the day it was discovered, please post it. I haven't found it in any scripture.

In Romans 14, Paul tells us that people who believe each day is the same under Christ are to be accepted, and also those who believe God created a Sabbath. All is done for Christ.

 

[Blik]

Truly.
To insist the Bible states what is not actually there concerning the Sabbath and Jesus' resurrection so as to make our risen Lord to have left the tomb on a Sunday, and therein justify that day as our new Sabbath is a complex effort in contradiction.

The Sabbath is still being recognized only as attending church on Sunday. Further confounding the Biblical record is the implication that Jesus who was God would cancel his own Sabbath day that he created for us. And this in order to arise on the day after Sabbath concluded in order to reconfigure Sabbath to a different day for whom?

When the Apostles recognized the Sabbath day even after Jesus ascended. And there is no mention whatsoever in Jesus words or the writings of the Apostles that that day had been changed to Sunday because their master resurrected on that day.

There is not one scripture that states the Sabbath day was changed to Sunday. And yet, there are schools of thought that insist it is so. And for some incredibly odd reason known only to those committed to the practice, the traditional Sabbath time frame, sundown Friday unto sundown Saturday, is not acceptable.

Nor is recognizing that the first day of the week in scripture, according to Jewish calendar, being Sunday per the scriptures tells us that Jesus had risen prior to that day if we read just John 20:1 .


The Resurrection
John 20:1 Now very early on the first day of the week,[a] while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene[b] came to the tomb and saw that the stone had been moved away from the entrance.[c]
[a] footnote: sn The first day of the week would be early Sunday morning. The Sabbath (and in this year the Passover) would have lasted from 6 p.m. Friday until 6 p.m. Saturday. Sunday would thus mark the first day of the following week.

Jesus was raised on the first Sabbath after Passover.

John 19: 14 (Now it was the day of preparation[ar] for the Passover, about noon.[as])[at] Pilate[au] said to the Jewish leaders,[av] “Look, here is your king!”

15 Then they[aw] shouted out, “Away with him! Away with him![ax] Crucify[ay] him!” Pilate asked,[az] “Shall I crucify your king?” The high priests replied, “We have no king except Caesar!” 16 Then Pilate[ba] handed him over[bb] to them to be crucified.

What we see happening is the high day in scripture is being overlooked.

Since it was the day of Preparation, and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away. (John 19:31, ESV)
Leviticus 23:6-8 states the following:

And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. On the first day **Note, this is Nissan 15** you shall have a holy convocation; you shall not do any ordinary work. But you shall present a food offering to the Lord for seven days. On the seventh day is a holy convocation; you shall not do any ordinary work. (Leviticus 23:6-8, ESV)

I think the question we have to ask ourselves is, why are all matters pertaining to the feast days, etc... being ignored so as to insist Jesus rose from the grave on a day, Sunday, that scripture does not support. Even considering the Jewish calendar of days. Jesus was already gone from the tomb early on Sunday when it was still dark. Sunday's dark began at sunset on Saturday!

When Jesus was not in the tomb early on Sunday morning while it was still dark, considering the Jewish calendar is Lunisolar and the counting of days is from nightfall to nightfall, Mary and the women coming to the tomb with the herbs and other accouterments to attend Jesus' body and finding the tomb empty were there on Sunday. According to the Hebrew calendar counting of days.

That would mean Jesus was gone from the tomb on Saturday. Because the Hebrew reckoning of days is from nightfall to nightfall. And Sunday would begin at nightfall Saturday unto nightfall Sunday.


John 20:1 Now very early on the first day of the week,[a] while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene[b] came to the tomb and saw that the stone had been moved away from the entrance.[c]
[a] footnote: sn The first day of the week would be early Sunday morning. The Sabbath (and in this year the Passover) would have lasted from 6 p.m. Friday until 6 p.m. Saturday. Sunday would thus mark the first day of the following week.

It is serious to tell of scripture what is not there, I need to know about this and correct it.

You seem to believe that God wants us to celebrate the Sabbath on Sunday, and the Lord tells us we are still to accept each other's beliefs when they are sincere and they are to celebrate Christ. But to say scripture says something it doesn't say is not acceptable.

Scripture clearly tells us that it was discovered that Christ had risen already, and that discovery was made on Sunday. What have I reported that is different from that? You say Christ rose on that day, but I don't find a scripture saying that. It is not worth quarrelling about, falsely accusing, or misrepresenting scripture.

 

[CS1]

Actually, it is not. The original Greek interpreted the first day of the week is in actual fact one of the sabbaths (Saturday).

wrong!

 

[CS1]

Actually, it is not. The original Greek interpreted the first day of the week is in actual fact one of the sabbaths (Saturday).

the scriptures context do not sure that. The greek shows more than one application you have to use the one that contextually right. You do not take the meaning of a word in the greek and apply it to every situation we find in the word of God. The Authorial intent and how it is applied matters.

You can violate Greek all you like.
John19:31-42
Matthew 27:57-62
Mark 15:42-47
Luke 23:50-56

These verses show Clearly Jesu body was asked for prior to the Sabbath each used the " Preparation day" = getting ready for the Sabbath. Each Gospel account shows this.

Mark 16:1-2 say that The Sabbath had past and it was the first day of the week.
sabbaton can mean the sabbath day in the Greek however, it also means a day of the week or one of the seventh days of the week.

Because Mark 16:1 states "The Sabbath has past" we cannot place in the context the assumption Jesus rose on a Saturday

Unless you remove the witnesses account.

Matthews 28:1 says the same thing but even stronger. " in the end " in context to the Sabbath being over: = the sabbath having just passed, after the sabbath

Both Luke and John say " First day of the week" which is not the sabbath day but the one following it.

Actually you are wrong.

 

[gb9]

I have done the research Blain, a heck of a lot of it. Even wrote a paper for a Ph.D on the subject, but as we know, some people disdain study and education and much prefer to make wild guesses to proclaim to all and sundry regardless of whether it is true or not.

I love church history and that is one subject that I studied copiously for, so here is the gist of it......

The New Testament Church (NTC) always met from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown. Due mainly to the fact that the original church was Jewish known as The Way, and considered a sect of Judaism meaning there were no Christians in the church. They were Jews and did not stop being Jews after the New Birth invaded their lives. They took on the sayings of Jesus, cared for one another, fed each other, rejoiced in the fact that Jesus had risen, and showed what a great life he had provided for them.

Women, in particular, benefited from all this as if you were widowed you were on your own. Not in The Way as they cared for them, plus they did not suffer the ignominy of having someone else choose their husband for them. The Way considered that was God's responsibility and all they did was give it the OK.

It wasn't until Acts 15 in Antioch that they broke away from the normal Jewish way of life for the church. And at no time did they meet in a public building. They met in homes for the purpose of the four pillars of the church which were the apostles teaching, fellowship, prayer, and eating meals together. That is what breaking of bread meant. The meals were provided every day as there were a lot of their members that were poor or slaves so they did not eat well. This meal made up for that fact. To have given them a sip of wine and a piece of bread would have been an insult.

There are a couple of hundred pages I could write on the subject but that will suffice for now. If you want to know more read my thread "Do you want to belong to a New Testament Church."

so, which one of the 10 books that you claim you have read ( but won't revel ) told you this little gem??

 

[soggykitten]

It is serious to tell of scripture what is not there, I need to know about this and correct it.

You seem to believe that God wants us to celebrate the Sabbath on Sunday, and the Lord tells us we are still to accept each other's beliefs when they are sincere and they are to celebrate Christ. But to say scripture says something it doesn't say is not acceptable.

Scripture clearly tells us that it was discovered that Christ had risen already, and that discovery was made on Sunday. What have I reported that is different from that? You say Christ rose on that day, but I don't find a scripture saying that. It is not worth quarrelling about, falsely accusing, or misrepresenting scripture.

You seem to believe that God wants us to celebrate the Sabbath on Sunday,
Actually that's not what I said at all. Jesus did not rise on Sunday. I thought that protracted post of mine made that clear and with scripture. I'll see if I can find a impartial source, not from a member here, to support what was written in my post.

 

[gb9]

You seem to believe that God wants us to celebrate the Sabbath on Sunday,
Actually that's not what I said at all. Jesus did not rise on Sunday. I thought that protracted post of mine made that clear and with scripture. I'll see if I can find a impartial source, not from a member here, to support what was written in my post.

just a tip, i have been interacting with blik for a long time, she is steeped in Hebrew roots theology, and spins everything to push Sabbath for salvation.


keep in mind, the Sabbatarian theology does not take Paul's letters as authoritative Scripture.

i had one tell me one time " Paul's letters were for churches with problems , if you do not have those problems , then you do not read Paul's letters".

this is the mindset you are dealing with,,,,

 

[CS1]

Scripture tells us it was discovered that Christ had already risen, the discovery was made on the the first day. If you are sure scripture states that Christ rose on the first day of the week instead of it being the day it was discovered, please post it. I haven't found it in any scripture.

In Romans 14, Paul tells us that people who believe each day is the same under Christ are to be accepted, and also those who believe God created a Sabbath. All is done for Christ.

I did with scripture

 

[Blik]

You seem to believe that God wants us to celebrate the Sabbath on Sunday,
Actually that's not what I said at all. Jesus did not rise on Sunday. I thought that protracted post of mine made that clear and with scripture. I'll see if I can find a impartial source, not from a member here, to support what was written in my post.

I do not believe that the Lord wants us to treat Sunday as a Sabbath. In Romans 14 Paul says we are to accept that some people feel all days are the same, and that would mean we are to accept whatever people believe.

I also believe that God knows all these truths, and what I or anyone else believes has nothing to do with what that truth is.