When are we saved ?
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So he chose all believers, before they believed?
Is Ephesians 1:1-14 ( and the rest of the chapter) about all believers or not?
So he chose all believers, before they believed?
What does Ephesians 1:1-4. Romans 8:28-30 etc say?
So he chose all believers, before they believed?
Didn’t you say earlier and didn’t the guy on the video say that Ephesians 1:4 was talking about vocational calling? How does God choose one’s vocational calling when their salvation is undetermined?
And is ANYONE’S eternal destiny ever undeterminable with God. Hardly possible.
So he chose all believers, before they believed?
Say a guy is going to get saved tommorow. Is his salvation undetermined with God today?
Impossible.
He is addressing those in Christ Jesus ( Already in him ) . So he chose all believers, before they believed? if so why ? And in what way ? Calvinism says he chose them and determined them only to be saved before they existed . And passed over or determined for reprobation . If this is not your position ( which i don't think it is ) Could you explain what is your position?Is Ephesians 1:1-14 ( and the rest of the chapter) about all believers or not?
So he chose all believers, before they believed?
Was the election of believers ever undetermined in the mind of God??
A vocation or purpose would be like choosing a person or group or people's or nation for service and purpose , in time .Didn’t you say earlier and didn’t the guy on the video say that Ephesians 1:4 was talking about vocational calling? How does God choose one’s vocational calling when their salvation is undetermined?
And is ANYONE’S eternal destiny ever undeterminable with God. Hardly possible.
He is addressing those in Christ Jesus ( Already in him ) . So he chose all believers, before they believed? if so why ? And in what way ? Calvinism says he chose them and determined them only to be saved before they existed . And passed over or determined for reprobation . If this is not your position ( which i don't think it is ) Could you explain what is your position?
No, I do not hold to the Calvinist position
God has perfect foreknowledge. Always has had perfect foreknowledge. Because of this, our election and salvation was never undetermined with Him. He has always known us. And He has blessed us with every spiritual blessings. These blessings are in Christ and His Grace to us is in Christ. And when we believe, we are placed in Christ. But Ephesians 1:4 is not about when we believed. It is talking about something that took place before the earth was made.
Again thats not the right word . Unless you just meant// Was the choosing of believers ever undetermined in the mind of God??// At best we can say with certainty he knew. Un less the text says specifically. If we had verses that said ' God chose people to be converted and he also chose people for hell , then fair enough .Was the election of believers ever undetermined in the mind of God??
A vocation or purpose would be like choosing a person or group or people's or nation for service and purpose , in time .
So where is vocational purpose mentioned in the context?
Again thats not the right word . Unless you just meant// Was the choosing of believers ever undetermined in the mind of God??// At best we can say with certainty he knew. Un less the text says specifically. If we had verses that said ' God chose people to be converted and he also chose people for hell , then fair enough .
The Bible does not say God chose people for hell. NOWHERE! Election is always about believers.
Again thats not the right word . Unless you just meant// Was the choosing of believers ever undetermined in the mind of God??// At best we can say with certainty he knew. Un less the text says specifically. If we had verses that said ' God chose people to be converted and he also chose people for hell , then fair enough .
It’s a simple question. Was a believers salvation ever undetermined or undeterminable with God?
Again thats not the right word . Unless you just meant// Was the choosing of believers ever undetermined in the mind of God??// At best we can say with certainty he knew. Un less the text says specifically. If we had verses that said ' God chose people to be converted and he also chose people for hell , then fair enough .
Is a person’s eternal destiny ever tbd, ie not known, in the mind of God?
So if as you say based on God's fore knowledge ,and that ' our ' el,ection and salvation was never ' undetermined ' with him. ( i assume you don't mean ' determined BY him )No, I do not hold to the Calvinist position
God has perfect foreknowledge. Always has had perfect foreknowledge. Because of this, our election and salvation was never undetermined with Him. He has always known us. And He has blessed us with every spiritual blessings. These blessings are in Christ and His Grace to us is in Christ. And when we believe, we are placed in Christ. But Ephesians 1:4 is not about when we believed. It is talking about something that took place before the earth was made.
Ok then because of this foreknowledge he ' knows ' us . ( both before and in him?) ok this is where it gets slippery
So according to this foreknowledge he blesses us with all spiritual blessings in Christ Jesus , before christ is even christ , before the fall before we were born, before we sinned .
OK then you say ' and when we believed ( I assume unlike determinism where irresistible grace would come in here , you just mean we just freely believe the Gospel by Faith ? ) Then we are placed in christ .
You then say ephesians 1 .4 its not WHEN we believed , but that its something that took place before the earth was made .
OK lots of questions here. But the biggest is , what took place before the earth was made , if it was just in God's mind and you don't believe God determined it ?
So we are shifting to God has determined who will or won't believe?Say a guy is going to get saved tommorow. Is his salvation undetermined with God today?
Impossible.
So he just determined those would believe? What about those God has not determined to believe?The Bible does not say God chose people for hell. NOWHERE! Election is always about believers.
I simply believe that God purposed that whosoever would believe would be placed in him .It’s a simple question. Was a believers salvation ever undetermined or undeterminable with God?
We know God knows what he knows from whats revealed within the scriptures This is where we are on loose footing . If we stick to the Scriptures we won't end up with philosophy about God that even atheists decide without God . About time , about determinism , fate , possible worlds, possible outcomes , causation ect . The trap starts with ' God knows everything right ' ? This is the atheist argument. ' Why did God do this or that or let this or that happen if he knew ....ectIs a person’s eternal destiny ever tbd, ie not known, in the mind of God?