When are we saved ?

[throughfaith]

Christ did not die for the whole world of mankind, but only the world of those that his Father gave him, and he says that he would not lose any of them, but raise them up at the last day. That sounds like eternal salvation for all that he died for, even saying, there would be no more sacrifice for sin, and that it is finished.

So your salvation was secured on the cross?

 

[throughfaith]

You are making the claim that God does not still speak to people. You cannot prove it, and in fact, have no way of proving it. It is simply something you choose to believe because God has not spoken to you. I have given the Scriptural basis for my belief, yet you reject it. You insist I give Scriptural proof of God still speaking, but then turn around and affirm, there are many things the Bible does not say.

I can't prove Jesus wasn't a black belt in karate from the scriptures either . Within the bible ( Which should be our standard) and from the bible God is not speaking to anyone audibly beyond the apostles. So unless you can show from the scriptures that God speaks to people audibly beyond specific people , prophets, Apostles and Jesus then I'm willing to look into it . If not ,it means you have a belief that's not from the bible.

 

[throughfaith]

BenjaminN said:
Just sit back enjoy the God-given faith you have, and realise that it was a gift, you had nothing to do with receiving the gift.

Ephesians 2 (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.




What is the gift referred to, according to you?

Salvation is the free gift. Through faith . Faith is the prerequisite.

 

[throughfaith]

Christ did not die for the whole world of mankind, but only the world of those that his Father gave him, and he says that he would not lose any of them, but raise them up at the last day. That sounds like eternal salvation for all that he died for, even saying, there would be no more sacrifice for sin, and that it is finished.

He died not for the whole world of mankind . But only the world of those that the father gave him ? Good grief . words can no longer mean anything with this logic.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The reason I say that we are not forgiven before we believe is because the Bible clearly states that justification is by faith. If justification is by faith, it follows that faith precedes forgiveness/justification.

I hold the view of Paul in Romans 8:28-30. Foreknown, predestined, called, justified, glorified.

I disagree with through faith because he puts predestination and calling after justification.

I disagree with you if you put forgiveness/justification before calling.

It’s God foreknew, predestined, called, justified, glorified in that order.

We are called, we believe, we are justified. In that order.

Not too many times on this forum do I get to converse with someone who is serious in discussing with patience the truths found in them, as I feel that you are.

Jesus was our sacrifice for sins over 2000 years ago, and Rom 4:25, says he was delivered for our offences, and was raised for our justification, and you are telling me that we are not justified, unless we believe?

2 Tim 2:13, that if we believe not, Jesus will abide faithful, he cannot deny himself.

Those that Christ died for, which was those that his Father gave to him, was not his death to pay for their sins? If Christ died for their sins, are they not without sin in the eyes of God, whether they know it or not?

I appreciate your patience with me, most do not have the patience to hear me out.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you are referring to John 3:16, The world in this verse has to be "the world of believers"

Heb 12:6, For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. You have been taught, I presume, that God loves all mankind, and wants to save all mankind to eternal heaven, and this is the loving God that you want to serve, but the truth is that if he loved everyone, then he would chasten everyone.

Psalms 73, David was envious of the wicked because he saw the prosperity of the wicked, saying that there are no bands in their death; but their strength is firm. They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they "PLAGUED" (Greek=divinely punished) as other men.

verse 13, Verily I have cleansed my heart in vain, and washed my hands in innocency. 14, For all the day long have I been plagued, and chastened every morning.

God does not love all of mankind, and Jesus did not die for all mankind. Had he died for all mankind, then all mankind will be in heaven.

Jesus did not say this, your adding to the text, he said the world, if he meant to say elect he would have said so, just like if he meant water was baptism he would have said so

 

[ForestGreenCook]

He died not for the whole world of mankind . But only the world of those that the father gave him ? Good grief . words can no longer mean anything with this logic.

Explain.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Jesus did not say this, your adding to the text, he said the world, if he meant to say elect he would have said so, just like if he meant water was baptism he would have said so

Failure to harmonize the scriptures will lead you to a false doctrine. What text am I adding to?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Failure to harmonize the scriptures will lead you to a false doctrine. What text am I adding to?

Your right, so why do you fail to harmonize scripture?

 

[throughfaith]

If you are referring to John 3:16, The world in this verse has to be "the world of believers"

Heb 12:6, For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. You have been taught, I presume, that God loves all mankind, and wants to save all mankind to eternal heaven, and this is the loving God that you want to serve, but the truth is that if he loved everyone, then he would chasten everyone.

Psalms 73, David was envious of the wicked because he saw the prosperity of the wicked, saying that there are no bands in their death; but their strength is firm. They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they "PLAGUED" (Greek=divinely punished) as other men.

verse 13, Verily I have cleansed my heart in vain, and washed my hands in innocency. 14, For all the day long have I been plagued, and chastened every morning.

God does not love all of mankind, and Jesus did not die for all mankind. Had he died for all mankind, then all mankind will be in heaven.

Again ,once you realise that the atonement doesn't save anyone you will be able to understand Jesus dying for the whole world equally doesn't save anyone unless they recieve the atonement. No one can be glorified unless they recieve Jesus .

 

[throughfaith]

Failure to harmonize the scriptures will lead you to a false doctrine. What text am I adding to?

Why do you believe Jesus dying for the the whole world must automatically means all needs be glorified? How does that logically follow from the scriptures?

 

[throughfaith]

Failure to harmonize the scriptures will lead you to a false doctrine. What text am I adding to?

There's no such thing as a ' limited atonement ' . That is what is confusing your understanding of the verses in Romans 5 . If you lay aside that doctrine and simply read Romans 5 you will see what I'm trying to say .

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Why do you believe Jesus dying for the the whole world must automatically means all needs be glorified? How does that logically follow from the scriptures?

John 6, Christ said that he would lose nothing but raise them up at the last day. If he died for all mankind and he does not lose any, then all mankind will be saved, according to your theory.

 

[throughfaith]

John 6, Christ said that he would lose nothing but raise them up at the last day. If he died for all mankind and he does not lose any, then all mankind will be saved, according to your theory.

Why do you base your understanding of the atonement on John six ( OT ) when the atonement doesn't happen until mathew 28 ? The resurrection hasn't happened nor the giving of the Holy Spirit?

 

[throughfaith]

Failure to harmonize the scriptures will lead you to a false doctrine. What text am I adding to?

' Harmonise ' is often used to confirm preconceived doctrines, presuppositions and bias .

 

[throughfaith]

The reason I say that we are not forgiven before we believe is because the Bible clearly states that justification is by faith. If justification is by faith, it follows that faith precedes forgiveness/justification.

I hold the view of Paul in Romans 8:28-30. Foreknown, predestined, called, justified, glorified.

I disagree with through faith because he puts predestination and calling after justification.

I disagree with you if you put forgiveness/justification before calling.

It’s God foreknew, predestined, called, justified, glorified in that order.

We are called, we believe, we are justified. In that order.

How and why were you called ?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

' Harmonise ' is often used to confirm preconceived doctrines, presuppositions and bias .

So, you do not think that the scriptures should harmonize?

Why do you base your understanding of the atonement on John six ( OT ) when the atonement doesn't happen until mathew 28 ? The resurrection hasn't happened nor the giving of the Holy Spirit?

I have given scripture reference where Moses was given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and it just became another scripture that you ignore like many of the other scriptures I have given you. Do you not believe that the scriptures must harmonize in order to believe the truths in the scriptures?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Your right, so why do you fail to harmonize scripture?

So, give me a scripture that does not harmonize with the scriptures that I have given you.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Again ,once you realise that the atonement doesn't save anyone you will be able to understand Jesus dying for the whole world equally doesn't save anyone unless they recieve the atonement. No one can be glorified unless they recieve Jesus .

2 Tim 2:13, Though they believe him not, yet he remaineth faithful, he cannot deny himself.

 

[EleventhHour]

Our faith does not give God the power to save us. His love grants us the power to believe unto salvation.

So our faith is no longer a gift from God?