Annual "Christmas is PAGAN!!!" thread

Lynx · Oct 9, 2020

Yes, well... we are to be a light in these dark times! We're supposed to be set apart from the world, and all that. We have to make it clear (loudly and constantly) that we are above all that, so people around us will know that we are holy and they can look up to us. We're supposed to eschew all worldly enticements and talk a lot about how much we shun them so...

Oh I can't keep this up with a straight face.

soggykitten · Oct 9, 2020

Lynx said:

This is one of the first myths I was told about as the reason to avoid Christmas celebration if one is a Christian. I couldn't help but laugh every season for a few years when Christmas tree sales tents would open near me.

I like this meme because the part about Saturnalia is said to be the reason Christian worship day is Sunday. The pagan Roman festival adopted by the early RCC so as to placate the Romans who would think Christianity was just another pagan cult since the RCC members worshiped the Roman god Saturn on Sunday too.

More Saturnalia silliness.

Saturnalia was an ancient Roman festival in honour of the god Saturn, held on 17 December of the Julian calendar and later expanded with festivities through to 23 December. The holiday was celebrated with a sacrifice at the Temple of Saturn, in the Roman Forum, and a public banquet, followed by private gift-giving, continual partying, and a carnival atmosphere that overturned Roman social norms: gambling was permitted, and masters provided table service for their slavesas it was seen as a time of liberty for both....
More @ Saturnalia - Wikipedia

soggykitten · Oct 9, 2020

IToreTheSky said:

It should be wrong when you reach a certain age. Wrong you're growing more toward death by old age.

IToreTheSky · Oct 9, 2020

soggykitten said:

After a certain age you should buy yer parents a birthday card for taking care of you for so long. When I say you, I mean us. I mean me. I mean you. No,really me.LoL

soggykitten · Oct 9, 2020

IToreTheSky said:

Agreed. I think we can take our parents for granted for having known them our whole life. They took care of us growing up, were there when we thought we were old enough to be on our own, and for many of us were always there anytime we needed them no matter where we were or what we were into. They kept our secrets, our mom or dad or both, were our best friend. They always were part of our life and it can seem to be just a given they always shall be.
Until one day they're not and never shall be again.
Devastating! And irreversible.
Love and treasure your parent(s) every day. Because when they're gone, every day without them is a reminder you're alone now. Maybe you have siblings, best friend(s), other family. However, you will never ever have other parent(s).
They brought you into life. When they leave yours for whatever reason be it cancer, a car accident, whatever it is that takes them away forever, it seems like in the moment that is their last the world stops for just a minute. As if God hit the pause button so that you realize what empty actually feels like. As if the whole world stops for a moment to grieve with you even when they don't know why.

And then the pause button releases and someone tells you through that fog and thick cotton that has wrapped itself around your entire consciousness, it's hard now but you'll go on.

And you do. Without your parents.
Eventually, after long years pass, you realize with no sound recordings about the house that you are starting to forget what their voice sounded like. Yet you have not yet forgotten their face.

And once in a great while, like now, as you recall how they left you, you cry. Because no matter how many years you live on without them the absolute in your life now is and shall ever remain until you too breathe your last. And that is that little girl or boy voice speaks to you in that corner of memory called childhood. Speaking to the woman or man you are now and yet feeling the pain today that reaches back to those years you had them with you. Realizing how fleeting life is and how eternal death feels for those who live on without someone they held dear.

My mommy and daddy died and I'm all alone now.

Because no one fills their shoes. And no manner of time insures tears do not fall again for missing them.

Hold your parent(s) tight. Tell them how you feel now. Because no one is promised tomorrow and regret serves nothing save as that stark reminder that there is no going back there is no do-over. Because words left unspoken in the moment shall never later be heard by the dead.

God bless every parent on earth. Amen.

IToreTheSky · Oct 10, 2020

soggykitten said:

Agreed. I think we can take our parents for granted for having known them our whole life. They took care of us growing up, were there when we thought we were old enough to be on our own, and for many of us were always there anytime we needed them no matter where we were or what we were into. They kept our secrets, our mom or dad or both, were our best friend. They always were part of our life and it can seem to be just a given they always shall be.
Until one day they're not and never shall be again.
Devastating! And irreversible.
Love and treasure your parent(s) every day. Because when they're gone, every day without them is a reminder you're alone now. Maybe you have siblings, best friend(s), other family. However, you will never ever have other parent(s).
They brought you into life. When they leave yours for whatever reason be it cancer, a car accident, whatever it is that takes them away forever, it seems like in the moment that is their last the world stops for just a minute. As if God hit the pause button so that you realize what empty actually feels like. As if the whole world stops for a moment to grieve with you even when they don't know why.

And then the pause button releases and someone tells you through that fog and thick cotton that has wrapped itself around your entire consciousness, it's hard now but you'll go on.

And you do. Without your parents.
Eventually, after long years pass, you realize with no sound recordings about the house that you are starting to forget what their voice sounded like. Yet you have not yet forgotten their face.

And once in a great while, like now, as you recall how they left you, you cry. Because no matter how many years you live on without them the absolute in your life now is and shall ever remain until you too breathe your last. And that is that little girl or boy voice speaks to you in that corner of memory called childhood. Speaking to the woman or man you are now and yet feeling the pain today that reaches back to those years you had them with you. Realizing how fleeting life is and how eternal death feels for those who live on without someone they held dear.

My mommy and daddy died and I'm all alone now.

Because no one fills their shoes. And no manner of time insures tears do not fall again for missing them.

Hold your parent(s) tight. Tell them how you feel now. Because no one is promised tomorrow and regret serves nothing save as that stark reminder that there is no going back there is no do-over. Because words left unspoken in the moment shall never later be heard by the dead.

God bless every parent on earth. Amen.

That was beautiful. ❤

Moses_Young · Oct 11, 2020

Okay. I get the whole Christmas tree thing. To me, it's a little strange. If anything, the tree reminds me of a stable. Although, in reality, the stable wouldn't have had trees, although it gives inside that outsidey feel. So neglecting the Christmas tree, what about the rest of Christmas? When Jesus came, the whole calendar of the world changed. We re-started the year-counter, starting at 1 AD. Was that wrong? And if Christmas is part of the pagan calendar, what about all the other Christian holidays? Isn't January 1 (the beginning of the year) based on Jesus' circumcision (8 days after Christmas)? Which pagan tradition does this usurp? What about the other holidays, such as Jesus' Ascension, Pentecost and Easter (i.e. originally Passover, or the Crucifixion)? The whole world and calendar changed when Jesus came, and I am not convinced it is wrong to celebrate the memory of these events.

If we go back to celebrating the Old Testament feast days, doesn't that make us Jews? This said, I'm happy to throw away Santa and the Christmas tree.

Lynx · Oct 11, 2020

I don't even know why we still HAVE Santa. There's a blue million movies where somebody has to "save Christmas" or the "magic of Christmas" will be lost forever, and they always come through just in the Nick (pun intended) of time. Seems like one time or another somebody would drop the ball.

Quote from a youtube clip: "No I don't believe in Santa. I been asking for peace and quiet every year, and I still ain't got it."

Scribe · Oct 11, 2020

SarahUmbreon · Oct 11, 2020

Lynx said:

I would say in my opinion, as someone who currently has a 7 year old half sister, it is to just have fun. Like how people say the Easter Bunny is real. She gets really excited about Santa and I know she will grow out of it when older, but it’s just part of the kid stage you could say, cause most kids have an active imagination and whatnot. So it’s not trying to turn kids towards evil stuff, it’s just so ingrained into society, that’s what I would say.

I have nothing against parents who want to raise their kids to not believe in Santa, but I’m glad I was raised to believe him, it helps to keep my “child whimsy” alive each time Christmas comes around, and helps me from getting too cynical, in my personal opinion.

Mii · Oct 11, 2020

Moses_Young said:

Maybe familiarize yourself with Yule and how it even became associated with Christianity at all.

This is the first I've heard of the circumcision being the reason for one of the Gentile New Years.

Passover would be celebrating a Jewish memorial day. I know plenty of people that mark it by bible study and a meal. If nothing else, it's interesting. It also gives a deeper understanding to the crucifixion in little tidbits you'd miss I'd think. Do you need those for salvation? Generally speaking no. At the same time there probably are some that find and finally ask Jesus to save them because of the "details" so I don't say they are wrong to know.

Regarding the Jewish feasts I'm on the fence. I think it isn't wrong but it isn't required. For me I see it as a way to grow closer to the Jews and learn about the ethnicity of my Lord and maybe he will open up my understanding on the heart behind these things in the first place as they are in the bible.

Sort of shunning the pagan holidays and going toward one's that the Lord "actually" instituted seems commendable in memory. I think so long as you accept Jesus as Lord there's nothing wrong with it. Lot of culture behind it and sure pharasaical religiosity is to be guarded against but that's true with anything. I don't see it as any worse unless you look down on others because of it.

~End direct reply~

I won't get into Xmas as a whole. It's the same deal as TV/Films. 99% or more is sin for me as I believe in my heart it was not made to honor the Lord and so why gain entertainment or exult in it. If others haven't been convicted similarly then maybe there's a reason. Anyone I've talked to about it either reacts in anger or ignores me (believers). To be fair though, I've had conviction about films since I was a toddler...and yet all the adults around me seemed to encourage them. It goes deep for me and while I don't think entirely remaining silent is the right answer I just ask people be discerning and redeem the time.

I'm not saying that to say that I'm "holier than thou" or anything. Only relating my convictions at a young age. If the Lord convicts you, there's a reason. If he doesn't until your 50, there's a reason. Who can say what this reason is and let fleshly judgements come in? Not I for sure.

Xmas is Christian mainstream. Personally I think it's lukewarm as a whole but you may have a small number that truly are beacons in that nonsense same with films. The enemy is not without power and to be cavalier about it (not at any person in particular) is courting peril. If nothing else, wasted time and wasted opportunities.
There are a lot of people hurting on Xmas, perhaps more than usual, because people want to spend time with their families. There are lots of ministry opportunities out there during that time. Even giving up your presents in order to bless a few families in poor areas seems excellent. Nothing wrong with taking advantage of what may be an open door. Regardless of why the door is there, giving coloring books and educational materials to children and useful items to the parents as well as food? I don't see any problem with that, super cool in fact.

Some of the things I've observed are rather disturbing. It comes to a point for some during Xmas because it's like a united effort of people to do things because "it's christmas" believers or not. So whether you think it has power or not, it does for some and consider those that are weaker than you...who might be attracted to idolatry or spiritual harlotry. Xmas is an avenue to that just as films are fodder for those that struggle with vain imaginations... just as a warning from a brother in Christ.

Scribe · Oct 11, 2020

soggykitten said:

It was always known that in the mid fourth century bishops of the Roman Church began celebrating Jesus birth on December 25th to draw attention away from SEVERAL mystery cult religions that had festivals at this time.
The most popular was actually that of Mithraism. But also the winter solstice was celebrated on that day and the feast of Sarturnalia. The bishops attempted to put focus on a Christian theme like the birth of Christ even though they knew that the date was probably between April - September no one can pin it down exactly. Clement thought it was May 20. January 6th was considered the day of Jesus Baptism and so the eastern church celebrates Christmas on Jan 6 as a result.

Don't put too much emphasis on Saturnalia as the reason because it was actually Mithraism that was competing with the Church at the time and was similar to the masons of our day in that some Christians were getting involved for the sake of benefits of the secret society aspects. One of the most popular aspects of Mithraic worship was the feast day of the god Mithras which fell on Dec 25. On this day they brought gifts.

I just happened to be reading this in my class on New Testament Survey from one of the text books "Exploring the New Testament World - An Illustrated Guide to the World of Jesus and the First Christians" by Albert A. Bell Jr.

So the fact that they were attempting to replace these pagan feasts which were so popular with the masses with a Christian Themed Holiday was known then and throughout history for anyone who is willing to read history.

The question then arises "Was that a good idea?" Well it did eventually replace the feast of Mithras and the feast of Saturnalia so it seems to have worked out well in that regards.

It make no sense to suggest that celebrating Christmas is an attempt to worship pagan gods because that is a reversal of the history that occurred and you can't change history whether you want to our not.

If you discover someone trying to replace the celebration of Christ birth on Dec 25th with the worship of Mithra and the accompanying rituals that went along with Mirthraism then that would be someone who is trying to return to those feasts that the bishops were trying to replace. I am sure they are out there somewhere.

Claiming that celebrating Christ's birth on Dec 25 is pagan because they used to have pagan feasts on that day is flawed logic. That was the whole point of celebrating Christ's birth on that day, to replace and get rid of the pagan festivals. If they chose another day the pagan festivals would have still been observed but instead they faded off the stage of history.

Now technically Jesus never said to celebrate his birthday on any day of the year so there is no compelling reason to feel that you should. But there is also no reason to call Christmas a pagan celebration because it is not. It is more like a man made religious holiday based on a Christian Theme.

It's a little early for this thread. I figured we would be talking about the history of Halloween first.

Scribe · Oct 11, 2020

SarahUmbreon said:

I would say in my opinion, as someone who currently has a 7 year old half sister, it is to just have fun. Like how people say the Easter Bunny is real. She gets really excited about Santa and I know she will grow out of it when older, but it’s just part of the kid stage you could say, cause most kids have an active imagination and whatnot. So it’s not trying to turn kids towards evil stuff, it’s just so ingrained into society, that’s what I would say.

I have nothing against parents who want to raise their kids to not believe in Santa, but I’m glad I was raised to believe him, it helps to keep my “child whimsy” alive each time Christmas comes around, and helps me from getting too cynical, in my personal opinion.

Seven? Probably already knows and is faking her belief. I think by 5 they have it figured out.

Lynx · Oct 11, 2020

Ah good. Now we're getting this thread off the ground!

Now for the dissertation on the evils of tree worship.

SarahUmbreon · Oct 11, 2020

Scribe said:

Maybe but I really don’t think so, I’ll ask when Christmas comes around but I remember her being excited for Santa last year, and my Dad told me not to say anything because she still believes.

Granted I still get stuff saying it’s from Santa, but that’s just my Dad having fun. It took me probably until I was 10 or 12 to stop believing, but then again, I do have Aspergers, so there is that to consider.

GandalfTheWhite · Oct 11, 2020

Moses_Young said:

Actually the Bible teach us that God said it is His seven feasts... nowhere did he say it is Jewish or Israel's feast days.

Having said that:

Jesus was crucified on Pesach ( a "Jewish feast day)
He rose from the grave on first fruits ( a "Jewish feast day")
He had no sin (leaven) in Him (a "Jewish feast day")
He went to heaven and we received Holy Spirit on Pentecost (a "Jewish feast day")

so we are already celebrating 4 of the 7. Why not the other 3 then which Jesus will fulfill when return again?

The world an calendar did not change. We are just uninformed about the truth

Hope this help my friend

God bless

Tararose · Oct 11, 2020

I guess this is all meant to be light hearted ... but it’s feels a lot like an eye for an eye Thread. it’s like bullying the bullies, and I thought we were a bit more mature than that.

If people are convicted about something it is wrong for them to do it. We aren’t meant to belittle them. If they judge The freedoms of those not bound by those same convictions of course that is wrong in their part, but we have missed the mark too if we think that makes it right to mock them for their convictions. We are not meant to cause weaker ones to stumble, or those with sensitive consciences.

Sorry if you think I am being stuck up or over sensitive but on things like this especially aren’t we meant to be shinning out a “bearing with One another in love” beacon to the world?

I knew a lady at my church Who didn’t celebrate Christmas, she never made a scene about the tree in church or Santa being everywhere when she visited friends and family. But every year she was criticised and hounded to join in and people saying they were praying for her to come to her senses and stop
Being a legalist. People Deliberately boug and wrapped up presents and said you can’t open it until Christmas Day. It made her feel belittled and humiliated but she tried to be polite about it. She left eventually and I realised in effect how cruel and unloving and Legalist the whole church had been to her by refusing to love her and respect her convictions as being valid and important. Even if she had been mouthy and pushy it wouldn’t have been right to do what they did back. It’s not the way of love.

It’s a lesson I learned the hard way and so with that I will just ask we all take a second thought to treating other as they treat us instead of as we wish they would treat us. I am not saying anyone here is nasty, but it can sure slip
into us and them, when there should only ever be an us.

And now I will step back out of this thread And say goodnight all
And God bless

soggykitten · Oct 11, 2020

Scribe said:

It was always known that in the mid fourth century bishops of the Roman Church began celebrating Jesus birth on December 25th to draw attention away from SEVERAL mystery cult religions that had festivals at this time.
The most popular was actually that of Mithraism. But also the winter solstice was celebrated on that day and the feast of Sarturnalia. The bishops attempted to put focus on a Christian theme like the birth of Christ even though they knew that the date was probably between April - September no one can pin it down exactly. Clement thought it was May 20. January 6th was considered the day of Jesus Baptism and so the eastern church celebrates Christmas on Jan 6 as a result.

Don't put too much emphasis on Saturnalia as the reason because it was actually Mithraism that was competing with the Church at the time and was similar to the masons of our day in that some Christians were getting involved for the sake of benefits of the secret society aspects. One of the most popular aspects of Mithraic worship was the feast day of the god Mithras which fell on Dec 25. On this day they brought gifts.

I just happened to be reading this in my class on New Testament Survey from one of the text books "Exploring the New Testament World - An Illustrated Guide to the World of Jesus and the First Christians" by Albert A. Bell Jr.

So the fact that they were attempting to replace these pagan feasts which were so popular with the masses with a Christian Themed Holiday was known then and throughout history for anyone who is willing to read history.

The question then arises "Was that a good idea?" Well it did eventually replace the feast of Mithras and the feast of Saturnalia so it seems to have worked out well in that regards.

It make no sense to suggest that celebrating Christmas is an attempt to worship pagan gods because that is a reversal of the history that occurred and you can't change history whether you want to our not.

If you discover someone trying to replace the celebration of Christ birth on Dec 25th with the worship of Mithra and the accompanying rituals that went along with Mirthraism then that would be someone who is trying to return to those feasts that the bishops were trying to replace. I am sure they are out there somewhere.

Claiming that celebrating Christ's birth on Dec 25 is pagan because they used to have pagan feasts on that day is flawed logic. That was the whole point of celebrating Christ's birth on that day, to replace and get rid of the pagan festivals. If they chose another day the pagan festivals would have still been observed but instead they faded off the stage of history.

Now technically Jesus never said to celebrate his birthday on any day of the year so there is no compelling reason to feel that you should. But there is also no reason to call Christmas a pagan celebration because it is not. It is more like a man made religious holiday based on a Christian Theme.

It's a little early for this thread. I figured we would be talking about the history of Halloween first.

We're ahead of the Christmas rush.

Duskey · Oct 11, 2020

I’d like to see these anti-Christmas peeps go back in time and tell Mary and Joseph to go pound all that Gold, Incense and Myrrh they received upon Jesus’ birth. That’d be funny.

soggykitten · Oct 11, 2020

Duskey said:

And very very painful.

Annual "Christmas is PAGAN!!!" thread

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