When are we saved ?

[throughfaith]

Beautiful!

When are we saved.
We are saved past tense - The word says we are saved in hope. - The work of Christ completed as our hope in his promise.
We are being saved - The ongoing work of the Holy Spirit united to our spirit by which we have everything we need for Eternal life and Godliness. - The being saved by being transformed into what can survive death and the presence of God.
Will be saved - AKA you are not saved yet. - Only those who endure to the end are saved. - The final works of God, our lives tested by fire and what was made of Christ in us is glorified the rest is purified by fire.

If you look at the OT rules for purification you can see salvation
The Spirit to purify like water to purify that which would not survive the fire. (Us without the Spirit of Christ)
The fire to purify everything else, the removal of all remaining sin along with the flesh, condemning sin in the flesh, and the revealing of what of Christ has come to exist in you and me.

Mat 24 .13 is about the tribulation and its ' saved ' from physical death . Notice its talking about ' in Judea ect .
13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15¶When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

 

[throughfaith]

Fine, you go with modern man's definition and I'll stick with the Hebrew/Greek definition.

That is what the Greek means ' change of mind '

 

[oyster67]

I believe in TULIP.

I didn't ever believe I was born into some elite, exclusive master class.

In fact, just before I was saved, I thought I was a vessel built for destruction.

I didn't start out believing in TULIP. It wasn't until after being saved and studying Salvation that I came to this theology and understood that it is the direct result of what scripture ACTUALLY says and not what people WISH it would say.

I love you, but I hate the horrible Calvinist heresy that you are caught up in.

Jesus died so that all men would have the opportunity to repent, come to Him, and be washed white as snow. I pray that the blinders be removed from your eyes and that you see the light this very day.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[oyster67]

I didn't ever believe I was born into some elite, exclusive master class.

In fact, just before I was saved, I thought I was a vessel built for destruction.

This is simply the two sides of the same counterfeit coin.

 

[throughfaith]

I believe in TULIP.

I didn't ever believe I was born into some elite, exclusive master class.

In fact, just before I was saved, I thought I was a vessel built for destruction.

I didn't start out believing in TULIP. It wasn't until after being saved and studying Salvation that I came to this theology and understood that it is the direct result of what scripture ACTUALLY says and not what people WISH it would say.

My story is After I was saved i got pretty close to accepting certain parts of Calvinism. But this was more due to outside influence and not from my personal bible study . Before a person gets grounded into the scriptures I believe its easy to get drawn into calvinism . But very difficult to come out of it .

 

[Grandpa]

I love you, but I hate the horrible Calvinist heresy that you are caught up in.

Jesus died so that all men would have the opportunity to repent, come to Him, and be washed white as snow. I pray that the blinders be removed from your eyes and that you see the light this very day.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

There's no blinders on my eyes.

All men have the opportunity to repent. Not all men repent.

All men had the opportunity to join Israel. Not all men joined Israel.


So why do some repent and some don't? Some believe and some don't?

John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

 

[Grandpa]

My story is After I was saved i got pretty close to accepting certain parts of Calvinism. But this was more due to outside influence and not from my personal bible study . Before a person gets grounded into the scriptures I believe its easy to get drawn into calvinism . But very difficult to come out of it .

I think its the opposite.

Its very easy to continue in the worlds view of believing that your free will is the cause of everything.

Its not easy to study the bible and come to Christ and find out the Truth. And the Truth is we are not saved by our decisions. We are not saved by our free will. We are saved by Christ by Gods Will.

 

[Grandpa]

This is simply the two sides of the same counterfeit coin.

Its scripture.

You are calling scripture counterfeit.

Romans 9:21-24
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[throughfaith]

I think its the opposite.

Its very easy to continue in the worlds view of believing that your free will is the cause of everything.

Its not easy to study the bible and come to Christ and find out the Truth. And the Truth is we are not saved by our decisions. We are not saved by our free will. We are saved by Christ by Gods Will.

My questioning of Calvinism was triggered by my past experiences with the new age movement ( before I was saved ) I was primed I guess to be attracted to a certain systematic. Calvinism I believe is a development from Augustines gnosctism. Which is evidenced by having a sense of ' inner group , selective , chosen ,element . Its a very ' me ' centred , secret knowledge ( only those that have been given ears to hear ect ) theology . I unraveled the claims of Calvinism when I questioned the P in TULIP , because I couldn't understand the legalistic over tones to a system that claims eternal security.

 

[Grandpa]

My questioning of Calvinism was triggered by my past experiences with the new age movement ( before I was saved ) I was primed I guess to be attracted to a certain systematic. Calvinism I believe is a development from Augustines gnosctism. Which is evidenced by having a sense of ' inner group , selective , chosen ,element . Its a very ' me ' centred , secret knowledge ( only those that have been given ears to hear ect ) theology . I unraveled the claims of Calvinism when I questioned the P in TULIP , because I couldn't understand the legalistic over tones to a system that claims eternal security.

It depends on how you look at the P in TULIP.

If you are in a legalistic church and they are teaching to follow the law and they say the P is following the Law then it absolutely IS legalistic.

If you look at the P in TULIP as OSAS, Salvation is the Power of God and not of you, then it makes perfect sense and is 100% scriptural.


If you don't believe in Eternal Security then your belief in "free will" has overpowered the Power of God and His Salvation. That's not scriptural. That's taking your philosophy and forcing it over the top of scripture.

 

[oyster67]

John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven

And one of things God gave men was the opportunity to choose to follow Jesus . He gave us this when He gave His only begotten Son. All men have been given this opportunity from Heaven.

 

[throughfaith]

It depends on how you look at the P in TULIP.

If you are in a legalistic church and they are teaching to follow the law and they say the P is following the Law then it absolutely IS legalistic.

If you look at the P in TULIP as OSAS, Salvation is the Power of God and not of you, then it makes perfect sense and is 100% scriptural.


If you don't believe in Eternal Security then your belief in "free will" has overpowered the Power of God and His Salvation. That's not scriptural. That's taking your philosophy and forcing it over the top of scripture.

I believe in Eternal security, but not based on ' election " , but on the sealing of the Spirit until the day of redemption..Being predestined after we believe to Glorification/ Adoption. Free will is a bad argument against eternal security because at some point either after we believe or in heaven we can't undo our position. So I believe God secures the believer before heaven , for heaven.

 

[Grandpa]

And one of things God gave men was the opportunity to choose to follow Jesus . He gave us this when He gave His only begotten Son. All men have been given this opportunity from Heaven.

That is your wish. You have taken what you wish and placed it over the top of what scripture ACTUALLY says.

If ALL men had the opportunity to choose to follow Jesus then, at the VERY LEAST, ALL men would believe in the Lord Jesus.

1 Corinthians 1:26-29
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

 

[oyster67]

So why do some repent and some don't? Some believe and some don't?

Pride, lust, greed. We like to be in the drivers seat (or at least pretend we are.) Do you not understand what sin is?

 

[Grandpa]

I believe in Eternal security, but not based on ' election " , but on the sealing of the Spirit until the day of redemption..Being predestined after we believe to Glorification/ Adoption.

I couldn't tell you the exact mechanism that God uses. His Ways are high above my ways and His Thoughts high above my thoughts.

I don't have any problem with election. Due to the WHOLE O.T. being about election. And also Gods Omniscience probably would play a role in election.

I don't see God as waiting on men to figure it out for themselves. Otherwise, how do dummies like me get saved???

 

[oyster67]

in heaven we can't undo our position.

Thank God for that! Amen and Amen.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There's no blinders on my eyes.

All men have the opportunity to repent. Not all men repent.

All men had the opportunity to join Israel. Not all men joined Israel.


So why do some repent and some don't? Some believe and some don't?

John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

Recieve.

if that said believe I could agree with you

god offers all men the gift, if he did not offer it they could not recieve, thus when I recieve christ it came from heaven.

i still had to recieve and by this I was given the power to become son of god

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think its the opposite.

Its very easy to continue in the worlds view of believing that your free will is the cause of everything.

Its not easy to study the bible and come to Christ and find out the Truth. And the Truth is we are not saved by our decisions. We are not saved by our free will. We are saved by Christ by Gods Will.

My free will did not cause anything bro, not sure why I keep being told this is true

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Its scripture.

You are calling scripture counterfeit.

Romans 9:21-24
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

That’s concerning Isreal,who,of their own free will became tainted in his hands, is not the potter have the right to destroy that and rebuild?

 

[Adstar]

Unbelief condemns a person, not because it is an unforgiven sin, but because it is the exclusive point of access to the grace. (Rom. 5:2)

Christ’s life, not his death is what saves. (Rom. 5:10; 1 Cor. 15:17)
Sinner is saved by regeneration, not atonement. (Tit. 3:5)

Glorification is what’s limited, not atonement. (Rom. 3:23; 8:17-30)

When Christ said, “It is finished,” on the cross, everyone was still in their sins as per 1 Cor. 15:17.

Atonement is one component of many components in salvation. It alone is not what saves. (Tit. 3:5; Rom. 5:10)

Atonement is a prerequisite for salvation, not the execution of it. (Rom. 5, 8; 2 Cor. 5; Tit. 3:5).

The Atonement must be received. (Rom. 5:11, 17; Jn. 1:12; 1 Cor. 15:1-4)

The Atonement does not glorify anyone. (Rom. 8)

What Calvinists call “the golden chain of redemption” contains no direct reference to the atonement. (Rom. 8:29-30)

Belief that salvation for anyone was secured on the cross constitutes a denial of the necessity of the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:17)

Salvation is eternally secured by the sealing of the spirit, not “election.” (Eph. 1:13-14; 4:30; 2 Cor. 1:22)

There is no sealing of the spirit before Pentecost or after the harpazo of the church. (Eph. 4:30; John 14:17; Heb. 6:4-6; 10:26-29)

thoughts ?

This is a denial of the Gospel.. We are saved by believing Jesus and trusting in the ATONEMENT He secured on the cross..