No such thing as a (Pre-Trib) rapture, a false teaching of John N. Darby and C.I. Scofield (Dispensationalism)
The Pre-Trib Rapture - a PRIZE for only a few
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Here's what the Bible actually says about the rapture and when it happens:
15For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
1. The return of Christ, the trumpet sounds
2. The resurrection of the dead
3. The rapture
29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24:29-31
1. After the tribulation
2. The return of Christ, the trumpet sounds
3. The rapture
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
1 Corinthians 15:52
1. The last trumpet sounds
2. The resurrection of the dead
3. We shall be changed
4. All in the twinkling of an eye
11 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”
Revelation 11:15
1. Final trumpet, Christ reigns forever
2. Kingdom of the world becomes the Lord's kingdom
In conclusion: after the great tribulation Christ returns at the last (seventh and final) trumpet, the dead are resurrected, and believers are changed and raptured, all in the twinkling of an eye. They aren't separate events, they happen together.
15For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
1. The return of Christ, the trumpet sounds
2. The resurrection of the dead
3. The rapture
29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24:29-31
1. After the tribulation
2. The return of Christ, the trumpet sounds
3. The rapture
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
1 Corinthians 15:52
1. The last trumpet sounds
2. The resurrection of the dead
3. We shall be changed
4. All in the twinkling of an eye
11 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”
Revelation 11:15
1. Final trumpet, Christ reigns forever
2. Kingdom of the world becomes the Lord's kingdom
In conclusion: after the great tribulation Christ returns at the last (seventh and final) trumpet, the dead are resurrected, and believers are changed and raptured, all in the twinkling of an eye. They aren't separate events, they happen together.
I Agree 200%, Great Post Of Truth!
Dispensationalism wants to take a single verse and try desperately to twist it, creating a false teaching.
You present the verses in 1 Thess 4:15-17 the #1 go to verse for those in Dispensationalism in their false claim of a (Pre-Trib) Rapture.
As you stated, we see the return of Jesus Christ, the resurrection of the believers.
You show the timing of Jesus Christ return in Matthew 24:29-31 as being (After The Tribulation)
You could add that the resurrection seen is on (The Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught, John 6:39-40, & 11:23-24
So simple a first grade kid could figure it out, and they continue with the false teaching.
All you are doing is taking two distinct passages and linking them together simply because they both have the words "overcome them"... but that is to read without comprehending what you are reading.
(11:7 and 13:7 are DISTINCT!)Revelation 13:5-7's events are first told about in Daniel 7:19-27... but you would try to suggest that there, the phrase "the saints" speaks of only TWO WITNESSES/PERSONS (who "die" are raised and then ascend up to Heaven)?? No.
Daniel 7:19-27 - [parallel Revelation 13:5-7,1]
19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; 20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. 21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them [note Matt16:18 (distinct!) "SHALL NOT"]; 22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. 26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. 27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
Sorry, but "the saints" of this passage speaks of MORE than just the "two witnesses".
Typical response from the pre-trib crowd is that the return of Christ and rapture are separate events.
This idea that there is a bonus prize pre-trib rapture for a select few is also no where to be found in the Bible as far as I can tell.
The Bible is clear that the last trumpet is when the dead are raised, Christ returns and the living are raptured.
Have you noticed that not one of the concepts you promote has even a verse attached, never mind the two you need to establish anything. Have you also noticed that Revelation 17 was never mentioned in the OP. C'mon bro. Let's discuss the eight scriptures in the OP.
Go well bro.
^ Which reminds me, I had forgotten to mention your other passage, Revelation 12... which I had meant to also address last evening...
I believe "the woman" is the same who will "FLEE" in Matthew 24:16 (at mid-trib, "them which be in Judaea")... and that "the remnant of her seed" (Rev12:17) are the same ones as referred to in Micah 5:3 (distinct from v.2 there, which v.2 is about Jesus' birth), where 5:3 says, "3Therefore Israel will be abandoned until she who is in labor has given birth; then the rest [/remnant - kjv] of His brothers will return to the children of Israel." [note: Rev12:13 says, "he persecuted the woman who HAD BROUGHT FORTH the male [G730 - arren/arsena]" (no word "child" in this particular verse)--and meaning, prior to this mid-point of the tribulation... note also: I do not believe this is referring to "Jesus' birth"]
I believe "the woman" is the same who will "FLEE" in Matthew 24:16 (at mid-trib, "them which be in Judaea")... and that "the remnant of her seed" (Rev12:17) are the same ones as referred to in Micah 5:3 (distinct from v.2 there, which v.2 is about Jesus' birth), where 5:3 says, "3Therefore Israel will be abandoned until she who is in labor has given birth; then the rest [/remnant - kjv] of His brothers will return to the children of Israel." [note: Rev12:13 says, "he persecuted the woman who HAD BROUGHT FORTH the male [G730 - arren/arsena]" (no word "child" in this particular verse)--and meaning, prior to this mid-point of the tribulation... note also: I do not believe this is referring to "Jesus' birth"]
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I grew up in the 70's, those entangled in Dispensationalism of the day played the scare tactics of showing movies on their supposed rapture and tribulation every Fri, Sat nights during the summers.
The Antichrist running death squads, seeking out Christian's to receive the mark or die by beheading, no medical or food without the mark.
This was way before Tim La Hayes (Left Behind) series, but he followed in the footsteps of the 70's propaganda.
(Big Smiles)!
Movie Trailers:
(A Thief In The Night, 1972)
(A Distant Thunder, 1978)
^ From what I recall of those movies (and yes I did see them back then, LOL), they CONFLATED passages regarding "His Second Coming to the earth" by incorrectly applying them as "Rapture [IN THE AIR]" verses (i.e. Matthew 24:36 and context, esp vv.39-41 "one shall be taken, the other left"), which they are not ("Rapture" is not the Subject being covered in the Olivet Discourse, at all)
[note: Matt24:29-31 parallel with Isaiah 27:12-13... note "who" and "to where" etc]
[note: Matt24:29-31 parallel with Isaiah 27:12-13... note "who" and "to where" etc]
Part II
The word "ekklesia" translated "church" is used 19 times through Revelation chapters 1 thru 3. After that the word is never used during the narrative of God's wrath. The word "hagios" translated "Saints" is used 13 times and is referring to the great tribulation saints introduced in chapter 7.
Revelation 4:1 is a prophetic allusion to where the church is caught up which is why the church is no longer mentioned during the time of God's wrath.
The underlying principle here, is that Christ took upon himself God's wrath that all believers deserve, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer and which is why we will be removed from the earth prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath.
* The woman you saw is that great city who rules over the kings of the earth
At the time that the angel was showing these things to John, Rome was that city that ruled over the kings of the earth
* The seven heads are seven hill upon which the woman sits
Rome was literally built on and is famous for her seven hills
* The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls.
Purple and scarlet are the exact colors worn by the bishops and cardinals
View attachment 221519
God's clues are pointing us the Rome and her pagan religious system.
Prior to the first being opened which initiates God's wrath, the Lord will appear and call up the dead first. Immediately after that, those believers who are still alive will be changed immortal and glorified and caught up with them. At that point the entire church will be in one place at one time, where the Lord will take the whole group back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us, as promised in John 14:1-3
It is not a reward, but a legal precedent. Since Jesus already satisfied God's wrath on behalf of every believer, then His wrath no longer rests upon us and we therefore must be removed.
I word 'anastasis' is derived from aná, "up, again" and hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again") and is used 42 times not once.
Also, it is not a resurrection for all men, but only the faithful in Christ, the church. The word 'harpazo' translated 'caught up' is defined as 'to snatch up, caught up, force suddenly exercised. It is a promise to all who are having faith and looking forward to His appearing, because we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.
Thought this is written to the Thessalonian church, the Lord's promise is for all church throughout the entire church period. It is the same as with the letters to the seven churches. Any commendations or rebukes are meant for each believer, throughout the entire church period, to analyze himself and if the shoe fits, then apply it and repent.
The 'hour of trial' is another moniker for the 'the Day of the Lord,' which is the time of God's wrath. They are neither an hour nor a day in length, but represent that last seven years. Every believer having faith will be kept out of that hour of trial. Those who will have gone back into the world and will be willfully living according to the sinful nature, will be those figurative virgins with no extra oil, i.e. not watching or prepared when the Lord appears. The believer who is keeping the patient endurance of Jesus, is referring to the faithful.
* Church is gathered (John 14:1-3, I Cor.15:51-53, I Thess.4:16-17)
* Antichrist is revealed at the opening of the first seal as the rider on the white horse (Rev.6:1)
* 144,000 sealed with the seal of God in their foreheads (Rev.7:1-6)
* Seals, trumpets and bowl judgments continue throughout the entire seven years (chapters 6 thru 16)
* Antichrist/beast causes the sacrifices and offerings to cease and sets up that abomination which causes the desolation (Dan.9:27, Matt.24:15-22)
* Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, with His bride/church following Him out of heaven riding on white horses (Rev.19:11-15)
* Beast and false prophet are captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire (Rev.19:20)
* Satan is seized and thrown into the Abyss and sealed over him for a thousand years (Rev.20:1-3)
* Great tribulation saints who died are resurrected (Rev.20:4-6)
* Millennial kingdom
* Satan released from the Abyss at the end of the thousand years (Rev.20:7-10)
* Satan cast into the Lake of fire (Rev.20:10)
* Great white throne judgment (Rev.20:11-15)
* New heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem
* Eternity ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
I'll grant you your right to your opinion. I will answer that which is (i) addressed in the OP, and (ii) for which you posted scripture. I think this is fair.
John 14:1-3 concerns the "Father's House". I did not address it in my OP. There is at present another thread on this matter running and my understanding is well documented on this.
The term "Tribulation saints" never appears in scripture, and you gave no proof of a special company so designated. If you mean Christians who have to pass through the Great Tribulation, then that is what I said in my OP. We agree then.
Whether or not the Company of Revelation 7 are "saints" or "Tribulation saints", they pass through the Great Tribulation. On this we agree. But in agreeing to that you contradict your claim that, quote,
I think you misread my posting. I did not say that "anastasis" was used once only in scripture. I said that the word rendered "resurrection" in Philippians 3:11 is used once. The Greek is "EXANASTASIS."
John 14:1-3 does not speak of Rapture. It speaks of Christ preparing "abodes" for the disciples in the Father's House. The Father's House is Christ's Body (John 2) - the Church (1st Tim.3:15).
1st Corinthians 51-53 speaks of a living man being changed from corruption to incorruption. Rapture is not mentioned
You first say that the Lord comes to receive the saints to take them "back" to the Father's House, but you later say that they come to earth on white horses. Do you mean they leave the Father's House that Jesus prepared for them? If so, what are your scriptures?
The word "appointed" does not mean "guaranteed". The navy pilot is "appointed". Some time later he flies drunk. He is cashiered and may no longer fly. What is with the "appointment"? Why did it not save him?
And I think the most interesting observation of all is that you did not enter into any one of my eight arguments. If they stand, the case is made. Whether "saints" or "tribulation saints", they pass through the Great Tribulation, We both agree that they were not appointed to it. What happened?
But let's close on a what we agree. Your chain of events is pretty close to mine.
From whence cometh understanding?
Daniel was given that during the Great Tribulation those with understanding will not be hleped a lot, but they will bring many to the truth.
Perhaps you are saying Daniel-s prophecy is incorrect, or others are in error understandig. I know, like Nehamiah 6, my learning has been given me only by the Holy Spirit and many decades of study. Not one denomination has been able to dissuade me from believing what has been given me, the faith of Abraham. All who believe have this gift.
I kinda agree with you, but Ephesians 5:27 says; "That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." You don't have to answer, but I'll ask anyway. Do you know Christians who are not "without blemish"? I freely admit that I am not without blemish. And I know Christians who openly sin, never mind that I know that the thoughts and intents of the heart are worse. And why, if we are perfect, holy, without spot, without wrinkle and without blemish does God threaten to chastise so that we REMAIN SONS of God? (Heb.12:5-9)
Actually, 1Cor15:51-54 speaks of both the "LIVING" ['this MORTAL'] and those [saints/'dead in Christ'] who have "DIED" ['this CORRUPTIBLE']... whereas 2Cor5:2-4 goes on to refer specifically to the FORMER of these two, in particular (which, Paul is speaking of what takes place at "our Rapture" point in time, there: "CLOTHED UPON" [this pertains to the "still-LIVING" saints at "our Rapture" point in time]... and "that MORTALITY might be swallowed up OF LIFE" ['changed'/'glorified bodies' APART from having to DIE first]).
Well, I would suggest that you go back and read them, because I included tje supporting scriptures.
I included the woman of Revelation 17 because I wanted to make clear that that the woman of Rev.12 was NOT the same woman of Rev.17. They are two different symbolic women.
First off, 1Th5:9-10 is addressed to [to/for/about] "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (all those saved "in this present age [singular]") not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods (not to OT saints, not to Trib saints [i.e. those having come to faith IN/WITHIN/DURING the future 7-yr tribulation period, FOLLOWING "our Rapture"], and not to MK saints).
Consider a post I'd made:
Post #60 on Sept 9 (the middle section re 1Th5:6,10 [same Grk words used in both verses]) -
https://christianchat.com/threads/things-happen.194668/post-4366547
How do you explain (what I'd put in the middle section of that post) re: the words used in these two verses (in this context) and how this is DISTINCT from that which we see used in the Olivet Discourse [same Grk word] and parallel verses to that (like Lk12:36-44, for example [context there: "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347]--i.e. His Second Coming to the earth]).
^ 1 Thessalonians 1:10 is also addressed specifically TO [solely to (to/for/about)] "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" where it says, "the One delivering us out from THE WRATH COMING" (an eschatological 'wrath coming,' that is, on the earth... during the future 7-yr trib).
Hi Blade. I am certain you are a good Christian. I won't write too much because you didn't actually answer any one of my postings, but you quoted me. I just ask you a question. In Matthew 24:44-51 it reads;
44 "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
As you can see, I made some words in bold. The point I make is this: The context is the return of Jesus (v.44, 50). The servant is a servant of Jesus "HIS Lord". And HIS Lord makes him ruler over HIS Household. That can only be the Church. The servant serves well and will be rewarded with being made a ruler of ALL HIS Lord's Goods. But verse 48 starts with, "if THAT evil servant". Which servant is THAT servant? According to the grammar it is the SAME SERVANT of verses 45-47. What happened? Why does he become "EVIL"? The reason is that the Lord DELAYED His coming. So, most probably because he had to wait so long for his REWARD, he started to mistreat his FELLOW SERVANTS. So ....
- He is a servant of HIS Lord when he is appointed ruler over the household of Christ
- He is a servant of HIS Lord while he serves well
- He is a servant of HIS Lord when he is rewarded
- He is a servant of HIS Lord when he turns to evil. His status does NOT CHANGE
- He is a servant of HIS Lord (v.50) while he is judged
- He is a servant of HIS Lord AFTER he is punished
Here's the question; Whether a Christian does good or evil, does his status as a servant change? If you answer "yes", you contradict what Jesus plainly said. If you answer "no", the you agree that there are evil Christians. And if so .. will these evil Christians have the same REWARD as those who followed Jesus in obedience? Please give scriptures for your answer.
Thank you and God bless.
^ meant to add (to my Post #37):
Others (those existing IN/DURING the trib yrs) will be coming to faith IN/WITHIN/DURING those trib yrs, and this is what Lk21:36 refers to where it says "that ye may be accounted worthy [some versions say, 'have strength'] to [actively] FLEE OUT OF each and every thing coming to pass [on the earth DURING the trib], and to stand before [in a judicial sense] the Son of man" [His 'Second Coming TO THE EARTH' designation]...
Others (those existing IN/DURING the trib yrs) will be coming to faith IN/WITHIN/DURING those trib yrs, and this is what Lk21:36 refers to where it says "that ye may be accounted worthy [some versions say, 'have strength'] to [actively] FLEE OUT OF each and every thing coming to pass [on the earth DURING the trib], and to stand before [in a judicial sense] the Son of man" [His 'Second Coming TO THE EARTH' designation]...
My spelling is then different to yours. 1st Corinthians 15 deals with RESURRECTION. Verse 50 says that this present body is not fit for the Kingdom. The dead will rise with a new and heavenly body. So the question is automatic. What then of the LIVING? Paul answers with the solution to LIVING MEN who must undergo a change. This is NOT the Rapture. The word "Rapture" ("harpazo" in the Greek) does not appear in 1st Corinthians Chapter 15. You are simply adding to scripture.
I will immediately agree that the Rapture occurs directly after the CHANGE, but they are NOT CONNECTED. One is the process of getting an incorruptible body for the Kingdom without dying, and the other is how Christians are moved off the earth. Go back and read the context. It concerns "those who do not sleep" and whether their body is fit for the KINGDOM.