The Pre-Trib Rapture - a PRIZE for only a few

[Corban]

I propose eight scriptures, four of which show (i) Christians passing through the Great Tribulation, and the other four which show (ii) that a Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a REWARD, or PRIZE, that must be earned by an already born-again Christian. To shorten the posting, the premise is that the Book of Revelation, true to the Greek - “Apokalypsis”, which means “THE REVEALING”, records events surround the Second Coming, or “Revealing” of Jesus Christ from heaven.

Easily seen it the first claim that some Christians will pass through the awful Great Tribulation.

1. In Revelation 7:9-17 We see a great multinational, multicultural and multi-language company who are obviously attached to Jesus Christ by white robes washed by the blood of Christ, standing before Christ’s Throne and hailing Him. Verse 14 plainly says that they passed through the Great Tribulation with hunger, heat and tears described in the verses following
2. In Revelation 12 a mystery Woman, who is a “sign”, brings forth three “Seeds”. The third of these is described as “having the testimony of Jesus Christ” and they must pass through the 1260 days of Great Tribulation (v.17) as a special target for Satan
3. In Revelation 13:7, a Company called “saints” are on earth during the world-wide reign of the Beast and are conquered by the Beast. Of the 62 times “saints” are used in the New Testament, only one does not refer to members of the Churches. That is, "saints" are Christians
4. In Revelation 18:4 the Holy Spirit calls for God’s People to come out of Commercial Babylon. Implied is that those who don’t will pass through the suffering and destruction of Babylon the Great BY GOD Himself.

I propose that the bulk of Christianity will pass through the Great Tribulation

Now, if the wording, grammar and contexts of the following scriptures is accurately followed, one can draw no other conclusion that to be “caught up” to the clouds to avoid this Great Tribulation is a REWARD, or PRIZE, that is gained by (i) an intimate walk with Christ, and (ii) the execution of works that God judges as given by Him and as being rightful.

1. In Philippians 3:10-14, Paul talks of “ATTAINING” two things; (i) A Select resurrection. The Greek word used here for “resurrection” is used only once in the New Testament and means “the resurrection out of the resurrection”. It must be “attained to”. That it is special is confirmed by 1st Corinthians 15:22 which guarantees resurrection for ALL men. So truly, a resurrection that must be attained to, is special. (ii) In the same context Paul speaks of an “Upward call”. The Greek does not tell of a “High Calling” as the KJV supposes, but a “call in an upward direction” as other literal translations like the New King James corrects. But this “Upward Call” is a PRIZE, and Paul STRIVES for it.
2. These two things are repeated in 1st Thessalonians 4:15-17 as the removal of the Church to avoid God’s wrath on all men is taught. But interestingly it is only addressed to the Church at Thessaloniki - a Model Church (see 1st Thessalonians Chapters 1 & 3)
3. In Luke 21:36, within the context that starts at verse 25, is of a time when men on the whole earth will be in agony. Our Lord Jesus promises an escape to where the Son of man will be during that time - not yet on earth. To be part of this escape one must be “found WORTHY”. Verse 35 sets the principle for being worthy - not involving oneself in the pleasures and cares of this present world
4. In Revelation 3:10 certain of the Church will “be KEPT from the HOUR of trial that comes upon the WHOLE EARTH.” Only TWO trials ever encompass the “whole earth” - (i) Noah’s flood and (ii) the Great Tribulation. But to be “KEPT from this TIME, or “hour” of Trial is CONDITIONAL. It is BECAUSE a Christian has kept the word of the the patience of Jesus. Nearly all of the problems that beset Christians after they have started well, is the delay of the Lord's Coming (e.g. Matt.24:44-51, 2nd Pet.3:3)

It is clear to me that each point mentioned above needs more words than I have given. But long postings are seldom read. So I now open them for discussion. At hand are sobering claims. (i) That God wants to save us from the Great Tribulation, (ii) that God has prepared a way out by our faithfulness and diligence, but that (iii) most of us Christians will not be raptured before the Great Tribulation, and pass through its agony.

 

[throughfaith]

I propose eight scriptures, four of which show (i) Christians passing through the Great Tribulation, and the other four which show (ii) that a Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a REWARD, or PRIZE, that must be earned by an already born-again Christian. To shorten the posting, the premise is that the Book of Revelation, true to the Greek - “Apokalypsis”, which means “THE REVEALING”, records events surround the Second Coming, or “Revealing” of Jesus Christ from heaven.

Easily seen it the first claim that some Christians will pass through the awful Great Tribulation.

1. In Revelation 7:9-17 We see a great multinational, multicultural and multi-language company who are obviously attached to Jesus Christ by white robes washed by the blood of Christ, standing before Christ’s Throne and hailing Him. Verse 14 plainly says that they passed through the Great Tribulation with hunger, heat and tears described in the verses following
2. In Revelation 12 a mystery Woman, who is a “sign”, brings forth three “Seeds”. The third of these is described as “having the testimony of Jesus Christ” and they must pass through the 1260 days of Great Tribulation (v.17) as a special target for Satan
3. In Revelation 13:7, a Company called “saints” are on earth during the world-wide reign of the Beast and are conquered by the Beast. Of the 62 times “saints” are used in the New Testament, only one does not refer to members of the Churches. That is, "saints" are Christians
4. In Revelation 18:4 the Holy Spirit calls for God’s People to come out of Commercial Babylon. Implied is that those who don’t will pass through the suffering and destruction of Babylon the Great BY GOD Himself.

I propose that the bulk of Christianity will pass through the Great Tribulation

Now, if the wording, grammar and contexts of the following scriptures is accurately followed, one can draw no other conclusion that to be “caught up” to the clouds to avoid this Great Tribulation is a REWARD, or PRIZE, that is gained by (i) an intimate walk with Christ, and (ii) the execution of works that God judges as given by Him and as being rightful.

1. In Philippians 3:10-14, Paul talks of “ATTAINING” two things; (i) A Select resurrection. The Greek word used here for “resurrection” is used only once in the New Testament and means “the resurrection out of the resurrection”. It must be “attained to”. That it is special is confirmed by 1st Corinthians 15:22 which guarantees resurrection for ALL men. So truly, a resurrection that must be attained to, is special. (ii) In the same context Paul speaks of an “Upward call”. The Greek does not tell of a “High Calling” as the KJV supposes, but a “call in an upward direction” as other literal translations like the New King James corrects. But this “Upward Call” is a PRIZE, and Paul STRIVES for it.
2. These two things are repeated in 1st Thessalonians 4:15-17 as the removal of the Church to avoid God’s wrath on all men is taught. But interestingly it is only addressed to the Church at Thessaloniki - a Model Church (see 1st Thessalonians Chapters 1 & 3)
3. In Luke 21:36, within the context that starts at verse 25, is of a time when men on the whole earth will be in agony. Our Lord Jesus promises an escape to where the Son of man will be during that time - not yet on earth. To be part of this escape one must be “found WORTHY”. Verse 35 sets the principle for being worthy - not involving oneself in the pleasures and cares of this present world
4. In Revelation 3:10 certain of the Church will “be KEPT from the HOUR of trial that comes upon the WHOLE EARTH.” Only TWO trials ever encompass the “whole earth” - (i) Noah’s flood and (ii) the Great Tribulation. But to be “KEPT from this TIME, or “hour” of Trial is CONDITIONAL. It is BECAUSE a Christian has kept the word of the the patience of Jesus. Nearly all of the problems that beset Christians after they have started well, is the delay of the Lord's Coming (e.g. Matt.24:44-51, 2nd Pet.3:3)

It is clear to me that each point mentioned above needs more words than I have given. But long postings are seldom read. So I now open them for discussion. At hand are sobering claims. (i) That God wants to save us from the Great Tribulation, (ii) that God has prepared a way out by our faithfulness and diligence, but that (iii) most of us Christians will not be raptured before the Great Tribulation, and pass through its agony.

The picture that God batters his bride into submission through terrible torment is not a image we should ascribe to God .

 

[throughfaith]

I propose eight scriptures, four of which show (i) Christians passing through the Great Tribulation, and the other four which show (ii) that a Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a REWARD, or PRIZE, that must be earned by an already born-again Christian. To shorten the posting, the premise is that the Book of Revelation, true to the Greek - “Apokalypsis”, which means “THE REVEALING”, records events surround the Second Coming, or “Revealing” of Jesus Christ from heaven.

Easily seen it the first claim that some Christians will pass through the awful Great Tribulation.

1. In Revelation 7:9-17 We see a great multinational, multicultural and multi-language company who are obviously attached to Jesus Christ by white robes washed by the blood of Christ, standing before Christ’s Throne and hailing Him. Verse 14 plainly says that they passed through the Great Tribulation with hunger, heat and tears described in the verses following
2. In Revelation 12 a mystery Woman, who is a “sign”, brings forth three “Seeds”. The third of these is described as “having the testimony of Jesus Christ” and they must pass through the 1260 days of Great Tribulation (v.17) as a special target for Satan
3. In Revelation 13:7, a Company called “saints” are on earth during the world-wide reign of the Beast and are conquered by the Beast. Of the 62 times “saints” are used in the New Testament, only one does not refer to members of the Churches. That is, "saints" are Christians
4. In Revelation 18:4 the Holy Spirit calls for God’s People to come out of Commercial Babylon. Implied is that those who don’t will pass through the suffering and destruction of Babylon the Great BY GOD Himself.

I propose that the bulk of Christianity will pass through the Great Tribulation

Now, if the wording, grammar and contexts of the following scriptures is accurately followed, one can draw no other conclusion that to be “caught up” to the clouds to avoid this Great Tribulation is a REWARD, or PRIZE, that is gained by (i) an intimate walk with Christ, and (ii) the execution of works that God judges as given by Him and as being rightful.

1. In Philippians 3:10-14, Paul talks of “ATTAINING” two things; (i) A Select resurrection. The Greek word used here for “resurrection” is used only once in the New Testament and means “the resurrection out of the resurrection”. It must be “attained to”. That it is special is confirmed by 1st Corinthians 15:22 which guarantees resurrection for ALL men. So truly, a resurrection that must be attained to, is special. (ii) In the same context Paul speaks of an “Upward call”. The Greek does not tell of a “High Calling” as the KJV supposes, but a “call in an upward direction” as other literal translations like the New King James corrects. But this “Upward Call” is a PRIZE, and Paul STRIVES for it.
2. These two things are repeated in 1st Thessalonians 4:15-17 as the removal of the Church to avoid God’s wrath on all men is taught. But interestingly it is only addressed to the Church at Thessaloniki - a Model Church (see 1st Thessalonians Chapters 1 & 3)
3. In Luke 21:36, within the context that starts at verse 25, is of a time when men on the whole earth will be in agony. Our Lord Jesus promises an escape to where the Son of man will be during that time - not yet on earth. To be part of this escape one must be “found WORTHY”. Verse 35 sets the principle for being worthy - not involving oneself in the pleasures and cares of this present world
4. In Revelation 3:10 certain of the Church will “be KEPT from the HOUR of trial that comes upon the WHOLE EARTH.” Only TWO trials ever encompass the “whole earth” - (i) Noah’s flood and (ii) the Great Tribulation. But to be “KEPT from this TIME, or “hour” of Trial is CONDITIONAL. It is BECAUSE a Christian has kept the word of the the patience of Jesus. Nearly all of the problems that beset Christians after they have started well, is the delay of the Lord's Coming (e.g. Matt.24:44-51, 2nd Pet.3:3)

It is clear to me that each point mentioned above needs more words than I have given. But long postings are seldom read. So I now open them for discussion. At hand are sobering claims. (i) That God wants to save us from the Great Tribulation, (ii) that God has prepared a way out by our faithfulness and diligence, but that (iii) most of us Christians will not be raptured before the Great Tribulation, and pass through its agony.

The Gospel is ' good news ' .

 

[Corban]

The picture that God batters his bride into submission through terrible torment is not a image we should ascribe to God .

Who locks the Bridegroom out? The Bride of Laodicea! The Groom is knocking - the Bride indifferent. The Groom brings a feast - the Bride is already fed with vain things and does not heed His solemn knocking. What apostasy! From "losing your first love" to locking your Master, Head and Groom out!

I'm constrained to say that the thought of a battered Bride is yours - not scripture's.

But brother, what think ye of those eight scriptures? I had to write very little, but you let them stand.

 

[Corban]

The Gospel is ' good news ' .

And have they obeyed this gospel? Is it a shock when one reaps as one sows? Shall the Bridegroom Himself enter Babylon the Great to plead with His Bride to "come out of it my people ... ." Is the King responsible if His Bride chooses the slums instead of His Palace? Was Lot - "the righteous" with Abraham at Hebron (Fellowship) on the high ground, or was he involved in "the Gates (Government) of Sodom? Would his wife be a pillar of salt if she had longed for a tent facing Bethel (House of God) like Abraham? No! Her longing was for the glamour of Sodom.

 

[throughfaith]

And have they obeyed this gospel? Is it a shock when one reaps as one sows? Shall the Bridegroom Himself enter Babylon the Great to plead with His Bride to "come out of it my people ... ." Is the King responsible if His Bride chooses the slums instead of His Palace? Was Lot - "the righteous" with Abraham at Hebron (Fellowship) on the high ground, or was he involved in "the Gates (Government) of Sodom? Would his wife be a pillar of salt if she had longed for a tent facing Bethel (House of God) like Abraham? No! Her longing was for the glamour of Sodom.

My point is that The Gospel is Good news . The death , burial and resurection . There is no bad news for those ' in Christ ' . Simple .

 

[Corban]

My point is that The Gospel is Good news . The death , burial and resurection . There is no bad news for those ' in Christ ' . Simple .

OK brother. I hear you. But I'll wager you'll be thinking about those eight scriptures.

Go well.

 

[throughfaith]

OK brother. I hear you. But I'll wager you'll be thinking about those eight scriptures.

Go well.

in the old testament?

 

[Blain]

My point is that The Gospel is Good news . The death , burial and resurection . There is no bad news for those ' in Christ ' . Simple .

Yes in Christ but there is a difference between a Christian by title and a Christian by heart I look at it from the parable of the then virgins awaiting the bridegroom, five took oil in their lamps and five didn't and so when by the time the bridegroom came only five had enough oil in their lamps.
Many are looking and waiting for him but many also as I said are Christian by title only. So many will speak of love but have none in them and others are secular Christians they know the bible better than the back of their hand yet know nothing of him.

I don't know the exact amount of Christians that will go through the tribulation but I do know I see many who claim to be Christian but do not have love in their hearts

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I propose eight scriptures, four of which show (i) Christians passing through the Great Tribulation, and the other four which show (ii) that a Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a REWARD, or PRIZE, that must be earned by an already born-again Christian.

I propose that the bulk of Christianity will pass through the Great Tribulation

If the wording were changed up just a bit, to say [instead], "I propose that the bulk of [what is commonly known as] Christendom will pass through the Great Tribulation [though I believe ONLY the SECOND HALF of the 7-yr period is called 'THE GREAT tribulation,' so I would say instead, 'any part of the Tribulation Period']" ... then I could fairly agree with a statement such as that.


I don't have a lot of time to elaborate, so will just put a brief listing as to "why":

--Phil3:10-14 is speaking of "the here and now" (distinct from 1Th4:15-17)

--Lk21:36 is not a "rapture" verse, but is in the context of those in and experiencing the trib yrs leading UP TO His Second Coming to the earth

--Rev3:10 being in the section addressed to "the churchES" (as opposed to strictly "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"), thus made up of both believers and those who "come in His name" but are not actually connected with Him (i.e. they are not "SAVED" persons); only the "saved" will be "kept out from" the hour [/time period being spoken of], that is, those who have "kept THE WORD of the patient-endurance of Me" [what pertains to "this present age [singular]"]

--Rev7:9-17 is the "a great multitude... of all the nations," i.e. those who (in/during the trib yrs, FOLLOWING "our Rapture") will have responded favorably to "this gospel of the kingdom" (Matt24:14/26:13) which will be being "preached" IN/DURING the trib years (FOLLOWING "our Rapture"), and their "destination location" being what is spelled out in Isa49:10 (earthly MK age), per vv.16-17; whereas I believe Rev5:9's "hath redeemed US to God... out of every kindred... nation..." refers to the Church which is His body being shown in Heaven BEFORE the FIRST SEAL is opened (like Paul in 1Cor15:51-54 says, "but WE shall ALL be changed" [speaking of ONE particular MOMENT in time], even as he is addressing the "Corinthians" [see 1Cor3:1-4, for example])




Hope I made sense... I'm in a hurry to get to another event... sry! = )

 

[Corban]

It's 1 a.m. here. I answer tomorrow ... ooops - later today.

Enjoy the event.

 

[Guojing]

I propose eight scriptures, four of which show (i) Christians passing through the Great Tribulation, and the other four which show (ii) that a Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a REWARD, or PRIZE, that must be earned by an already born-again Christian. To shorten the posting, the premise is that the Book of Revelation, true to the Greek - “Apokalypsis”, which means “THE REVEALING”, records events surround the Second Coming, or “Revealing” of Jesus Christ from heaven.

Easily seen it the first claim that some Christians will pass through the awful Great Tribulation.

1. In Revelation 7:9-17 We see a great multinational, multicultural and multi-language company who are obviously attached to Jesus Christ by white robes washed by the blood of Christ, standing before Christ’s Throne and hailing Him. Verse 14 plainly says that they passed through the Great Tribulation with hunger, heat and tears described in the verses following
2. In Revelation 12 a mystery Woman, who is a “sign”, brings forth three “Seeds”. The third of these is described as “having the testimony of Jesus Christ” and they must pass through the 1260 days of Great Tribulation (v.17) as a special target for Satan
3. In Revelation 13:7, a Company called “saints” are on earth during the world-wide reign of the Beast and are conquered by the Beast. Of the 62 times “saints” are used in the New Testament, only one does not refer to members of the Churches. That is, "saints" are Christians
4. In Revelation 18:4 the Holy Spirit calls for God’s People to come out of Commercial Babylon. Implied is that those who don’t will pass through the suffering and destruction of Babylon the Great BY GOD Himself.

I propose that the bulk of Christianity will pass through the Great Tribulation

Now, if the wording, grammar and contexts of the following scriptures is accurately followed, one can draw no other conclusion that to be “caught up” to the clouds to avoid this Great Tribulation is a REWARD, or PRIZE, that is gained by (i) an intimate walk with Christ, and (ii) the execution of works that God judges as given by Him and as being rightful.

1. In Philippians 3:10-14, Paul talks of “ATTAINING” two things; (i) A Select resurrection. The Greek word used here for “resurrection” is used only once in the New Testament and means “the resurrection out of the resurrection”. It must be “attained to”. That it is special is confirmed by 1st Corinthians 15:22 which guarantees resurrection for ALL men. So truly, a resurrection that must be attained to, is special. (ii) In the same context Paul speaks of an “Upward call”. The Greek does not tell of a “High Calling” as the KJV supposes, but a “call in an upward direction” as other literal translations like the New King James corrects. But this “Upward Call” is a PRIZE, and Paul STRIVES for it.
2. These two things are repeated in 1st Thessalonians 4:15-17 as the removal of the Church to avoid God’s wrath on all men is taught. But interestingly it is only addressed to the Church at Thessaloniki - a Model Church (see 1st Thessalonians Chapters 1 & 3)
3. In Luke 21:36, within the context that starts at verse 25, is of a time when men on the whole earth will be in agony. Our Lord Jesus promises an escape to where the Son of man will be during that time - not yet on earth. To be part of this escape one must be “found WORTHY”. Verse 35 sets the principle for being worthy - not involving oneself in the pleasures and cares of this present world
4. In Revelation 3:10 certain of the Church will “be KEPT from the HOUR of trial that comes upon the WHOLE EARTH.” Only TWO trials ever encompass the “whole earth” - (i) Noah’s flood and (ii) the Great Tribulation. But to be “KEPT from this TIME, or “hour” of Trial is CONDITIONAL. It is BECAUSE a Christian has kept the word of the the patience of Jesus. Nearly all of the problems that beset Christians after they have started well, is the delay of the Lord's Coming (e.g. Matt.24:44-51, 2nd Pet.3:3)

It is clear to me that each point mentioned above needs more words than I have given. But long postings are seldom read. So I now open them for discussion. At hand are sobering claims. (i) That God wants to save us from the Great Tribulation, (ii) that God has prepared a way out by our faithfulness and diligence, but that (iii) most of us Christians will not be raptured before the Great Tribulation, and pass through its agony.

1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Note that, even though the church in Corinth was so terrible that people are suing one another, sleeping with temple prostitutes etc etc, yet, Paul tells them all, in vs 51, that they will be changed.

Does that sound like one who is in the Body of Christ has to earned the right to be raptured?

 

[Ahwatukee]

I propose eight scriptures, four of which show (i) Christians passing through the Great Tribulation, and the other four which show (ii) that a Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a REWARD, or PRIZE, that must be earned by an already born-again Christian. To shorten the posting, the premise is that the Book of Revelation, true to the Greek - “Apokalypsis”, which means “THE REVEALING”, records events surround the Second Coming, or “Revealing” of Jesus Christ from heaven.

Easily seen it the first claim that some Christians will pass through the awful Great Tribulation.

1. In Revelation 7:9-17 We see a great multinational, multicultural and multi-language company who are obviously attached to Jesus Christ by white robes washed by the blood of Christ, standing before Christ’s Throne and hailing Him. Verse 14 plainly says that they passed through the Great Tribulation with hunger, heat and tears described in the verses following

Part I

This group is the great tribulation saints and not the church.

====================================================
"Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”

“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”

So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. For this reason,
===================================================

John was told previously to write letters to the seven churches. Then he was introduced to this new group of whom he was asked who they are? John basically says, I don't know. You are the one who knows. The very fact that the elder is asking John this question and that John did not recognize them, demonstrates that they are not the church.

These are Gentiles who will become believers in Christ after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath. This is the same group whom the beast is given power to make war against and conquer for 42 months, which is that last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period.

1. In Revelation 12 a mystery Woman, who is a “sign”, brings forth three “Seeds”. The third of these is described as “having the testimony of Jesus Christ” and they must pass through the 1260 days of Great Tribulation (v.17) as a special target for Satan

First of all, it is important to understand that the woman of Rev.12 and the woman of Rev.17 are figuratively representing two different women

The woman of Rev.12 = Pursued by the dragon

The woman of Rev.17 = Rides the beast (utilizes the beasts authority to establish her religious authority supreme

The woman of Rev.12 is symbolically clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars. The sun, moon and stars are the same symbols used in Joseph's dream in Genesis 37:9-10.

Sun = Jacob

Moon = Wife/wives

Stars = twelve tribes of Israel

The woman clothed with the sun, moon and stars is therefore symbolic representing the nation Israel.

(Continued)

 

[Ahwatukee]

Part II

1. In Revelation 13:7, a Company called “saints” are on earth during the world-wide reign of the Beast and are conquered by the Beast. Of the 62 times “saints” are used in the New Testament, only one does not refer to members of the Churches. That is, "saints" are Christians

The word "ekklesia" translated "church" is used 19 times through Revelation chapters 1 thru 3. After that the word is never used during the narrative of God's wrath. The word "hagios" translated "Saints" is used 13 times and is referring to the great tribulation saints introduced in chapter 7.

Revelation 4:1 is a prophetic allusion to where the church is caught up which is why the church is no longer mentioned during the time of God's wrath.

The underlying principle here, is that Christ took upon himself God's wrath that all believers deserve, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer and which is why we will be removed from the earth prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath.

1. In Revelation 18:4 the Holy Spirit calls for God’s People to come out of Commercial Babylon. Implied is that those who don’t will pass through the suffering and destruction of Babylon the Great BY GOD Himself.

* The woman you saw is that great city who rules over the kings of the earth

At the time that the angel was showing these things to John, Rome was that city that ruled over the kings of the earth

* The seven heads are seven hill upon which the woman sits

Rome was literally built on and is famous for her seven hills

* The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls.

Purple and scarlet are the exact colors worn by the bishops and cardinals

View attachment 221519


God's clues are pointing us the Rome and her pagan religious system.

I propose that the bulk of Christianity will pass through the Great Tribulation

Prior to the first being opened which initiates God's wrath, the Lord will appear and call up the dead first. Immediately after that, those believers who are still alive will be changed immortal and glorified and caught up with them. At that point the entire church will be in one place at one time, where the Lord will take the whole group back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us, as promised in John 14:1-3

Now, if the wording, grammar and contexts of the following scriptures is accurately followed, one can draw no other conclusion that to be “caught up” to the clouds to avoid this Great Tribulation is a REWARD, or PRIZE, that is gained by (i) an intimate walk with Christ, and (ii) the execution of works that God judges as given by Him and as being rightful.

It is not a reward, but a legal precedent. Since Jesus already satisfied God's wrath on behalf of every believer, then His wrath no longer rests upon us and we therefore must be removed.

1. In Philippians 3:10-14, Paul talks of “ATTAINING” two things; (i) A Select resurrection. The Greek word used here for “resurrection” is used only once in the New Testament and means “the resurrection out of the resurrection”. It must be “attained to”. That it is special is confirmed by 1st Corinthians 15:22 which guarantees resurrection for ALL men. So truly, a resurrection that must be attained to, is special. (ii) In the same context Paul speaks of an “Upward call”. The Greek does not tell of a “High Calling” as the KJV supposes, but a “call in an upward direction” as other literal translations like the New King James corrects. But this “Upward Call” is a PRIZE, and Paul STRIVES for it.

I word 'anastasis' is derived from aná, "up, again" and hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again") and is used 42 times not once.

Also, it is not a resurrection for all men, but only the faithful in Christ, the church. The word 'harpazo' translated 'caught up' is defined as 'to snatch up, caught up, force suddenly exercised. It is a promise to all who are having faith and looking forward to His appearing, because we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.

1. These two things are repeated in 1st Thessalonians 4:15-17 as the removal of the Church to avoid God’s wrath on all men is taught. But interestingly it is only addressed to the Church at Thessaloniki - a Model Church (see 1st Thessalonians Chapters 1 & 3)

Thought this is written to the Thessalonian church, the Lord's promise is for all church throughout the entire church period. It is the same as with the letters to the seven churches. Any commendations or rebukes are meant for each believer, throughout the entire church period, to analyze himself and if the shoe fits, then apply it and repent.

1. In Revelation 3:10 certain of the Church will “be KEPT from the HOUR of trial that comes upon the WHOLE EARTH.” Only TWO trials ever encompass the “whole earth” - (i) Noah’s flood and (ii) the Great Tribulation. But to be “KEPT from this TIME, or “hour” of Trial is CONDITIONAL. It is BECAUSE a Christian has kept the word of the the patience of Jesus. Nearly all of the problems that beset Christians after they have started well, is the delay of the Lord's Coming (e.g. Matt.24:44-51, 2nd Pet.3:3)

The 'hour of trial' is another moniker for the 'the Day of the Lord,' which is the time of God's wrath. They are neither an hour nor a day in length, but represent that last seven years. Every believer having faith will be kept out of that hour of trial. Those who will have gone back into the world and will be willfully living according to the sinful nature, will be those figurative virgins with no extra oil, i.e. not watching or prepared when the Lord appears. The believer who is keeping the patient endurance of Jesus, is referring to the faithful.

* Church is gathered (John 14:1-3, I Cor.15:51-53, I Thess.4:16-17)

* Antichrist is revealed at the opening of the first seal as the rider on the white horse (Rev.6:1)

* 144,000 sealed with the seal of God in their foreheads (Rev.7:1-6)

* Seals, trumpets and bowl judgments continue throughout the entire seven years (chapters 6 thru 16)

* Antichrist/beast causes the sacrifices and offerings to cease and sets up that abomination which causes the desolation (Dan.9:27, Matt.24:15-22)

* Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, with His bride/church following Him out of heaven riding on white horses (Rev.19:11-15)

* Beast and false prophet are captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire (Rev.19:20)

* Satan is seized and thrown into the Abyss and sealed over him for a thousand years (Rev.20:1-3)

* Great tribulation saints who died are resurrected (Rev.20:4-6)

* Millennial kingdom

* Satan released from the Abyss at the end of the thousand years (Rev.20:7-10)

* Satan cast into the Lake of fire (Rev.20:10)

* Great white throne judgment (Rev.20:11-15)

* New heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem

* Eternity ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

 

[Ahwatukee]

Who locks the Bridegroom out? The Bride of Laodicea! The Groom is knocking - the Bride indifferent. The Groom brings a feast - the Bride is already fed with vain things and does not heed His solemn knocking. What apostasy! From "losing your first love" to locking your Master, Head and Groom out!

I'm constrained to say that the thought of a battered Bride is yours - not scripture's.

But brother, what think ye of those eight scriptures? I had to write very little, but you let them stand.

The bride is the church, those who will be resurrected and those who will be alive, changed and caught up.

 

[Blade]

For me if I go back through the OT and NT and what God has always done for His own I don't see pre-trib as a prize or reward. Hes the one that said that He was going back to His Fathers house to make us a place and that He would come back and receive us unto Him self so where He is we will be. He said again where I go you know.

Now the problem is if there is no pre trib when are we ever with Him where He is? Where is He? Seated at the right hand of the Father. To know that Lot had to be gone..as long as you are here I can do nothing..God (angel) said. And we know no believer will ever see His wrath and we know Gods wrath is hitting the whole earth and we know there is no place to hide this time.

It would seem some believe they must suffer something to prove they are worthy.. I don't know. How happy and blessed are ALL the believers that DIED just before the great tribulation right?

The fact the Church after Chapter 3 is no longer talked about.. odd. Oh "Who locks the Bridegroom out? The Bride of Laodicea!" A this is not written. Rev 3:20 "if anyone hears my voice". Its directed at "anyone" not Laodicea. No one was spit out of His mouth.. He loves them and asked them to repent. Not sure why we would run with the negitive when they could have repented got right with God and are hot. As if they were stuck in time. As if this Church just HAS to be us the Church today.

He is coming.. there is not PRE verse no MID verse no POST verse. So..I watch and am ready now. I will never miss Him. I will never see my Fathers wrath. And Satan will never have power over me as he does in the great tribulation. I have all authority over the enemy. That will never change. That does not get talked about.. odd

 

[throughfaith]

Yes in Christ but there is a difference between a Christian by title and a Christian by heart I look at it from the parable of the then virgins awaiting the bridegroom, five took oil in their lamps and five didn't and so when by the time the bridegroom came only five had enough oil in their lamps.
Many are looking and waiting for him but many also as I said are Christian by title only. So many will speak of love but have none in them and others are secular Christians they know the bible better than the back of their hand yet know nothing of him.

I don't know the exact amount of Christians that will go through the tribulation but I do know I see many who claim to be Christian but do not have love in their hearts

No one with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit will be be in the Tribulation . It will be a time of trial for Israel not the Church .
the Scripture says that the Antichrist given authority—that’s by Satan—to make war against the saints. Now, those are the tribulation saints who come to Christ during the Great Tribulation, because the gospel will be preached—and to overcome them. And anyone who does not bow down and worship his image is killed. Well, that would be the entire church. Jesus said the gates of hell could not prevail against the church. The church is the bride of Christ. He is not going to leave us to the tender mercies of Antichrist to wipe us all out. So that’s another reason why we must be removed.

 

[Corban]

1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Note that, even though the church in Corinth was so terrible that people are suing one another, sleeping with temple prostitutes etc etc, yet, Paul tells them all, in vs 51, that they will be changed.

Does that sound like one who is in the Body of Christ has to earned the right to be raptured?

Do these verses address a Rapture? Or do they address a living man having his body changed to make it fit for the Kingdom?

Added to this, we discuss a PRE-TRIB Rapture. No one denies the rapture. And no one denies that the Rapture itself is effortless since a second party does it. We discuss what it takes to be "caught AWAY" (Lit. Gk.) BEFORE the onset of the Great Tribulation.

 

[Guojing]

Do these verses address a Rapture? Or do they address a living man having his body changed to make it fit for the Kingdom?

Added to this, we discuss a PRE-TRIB Rapture. No one denies the rapture. And no one denies that the Rapture itself is effortless since a second party does it. We discuss what it takes to be "caught AWAY" (Lit. Gk.) BEFORE the onset of the Great Tribulation.

The Pre-trib rapture has always been a mystery that was first revealed by the Apostle Paul, so vs51 spell out that word.

 

[Truth7t7]

No one with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit will be be in the Tribulation . It will be a time of trial for Israel not the Church .
the Scripture says that the Antichrist given authority—that’s by Satan—to make war against the saints. Now, those are the tribulation saints who come to Christ during the Great Tribulation, because the gospel will be preached—and to overcome them. And anyone who does not bow down and worship his image is killed. Well, that would be the entire church. Jesus said the gates of hell could not prevail against the church. The church is the bride of Christ. He is not going to leave us to the tender mercies of Antichrist to wipe us all out. So that’s another reason why we must be removed.

The Church will be present on earth and divinely protected by God during the tribulation.

it's going to be a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, as the (Two Witnesses) bring all plagues upon earth, as often as they will.

Your claim that (Saints) represents saved believers during the tribulation is 100% (False)

The (Saints) that are (Overcome) in Revelation 13:7 below, they are the (Two Witnesses) seen Revelation 11:3-8 below that will be (Overcome) and killed, when they have finished their work on earth, as the final days/hours of earth's existence unfold.

Revelation 13:7KJV
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 11:3-8KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.