Today’s church’s misunderstandings

[Blackpowderduelist]

I know this is page 10, and I see some debate about some stuff, initially the Sabbath. I agree totally that the modern church along with much of the ancient church didn't understand many things. The Epistles where written to clear those things up.
While the great reformation did a great thing a bad thing also occured. In attempt to restore the Catholic Church to correct teaching and doctrine, those reformers were removed from the now Roman Catholic church, completing their apostasy, at the same time returning many to true doctrine. However as a result, everyone who had some beef with those reformers took liberty to just sprout out and spring up churches of their own ilk. Sadly many false teacher rose up unfettered and led many astray. Thus weeds and tares grew up among the crops.
The solution is to read the Bible deductively, while forgetting what you have been taught by you denominations and pastors. Read all in continuous context, along with the historical records (for contextual purposes). Sorrowfully because so much time has passed, and decipleship has all but ceased, this is an arduous task, and there is no short cut available. One must be diligent and study for themself.
There is an up side, you can do it, and this is a little tip. It's all about Jesus, every bit of it, from begining to end.
The Garden; Jesus
The Flood; Jesus
The temple; Jesus
The law; Jesus
The prophecies; Jesus
The Gospel; Jesus
The church; Jesus
The apocalypse; also Jesus.

 

[garee]

I know this is page 10, and I see some debate about some stuff, initially the Sabbath. I agree totally that the modern church along with much of the ancient church didn't understand many things. The Epistles where written to clear those things up.
While the great reformation did a great thing a bad thing also occured. In attempt to restore the Catholic Church to correct teaching and doctrine, those reformers were removed from the now Roman Catholic church, completing their apostasy, at the same time returning many to true doctrine. However as a result, everyone who had some beef with those reformers took liberty to just sprout out and spring up churches of their own ilk. Sadly many false teacher rose up unfettered and led many astray. Thus weeds and tares grew up among the crops.
The solution is to read the Bible deductively, while forgetting what you have been taught by you denominations and pastors. Read all in continuous context, along with the historical records (for contextual purposes). Sorrowfully because so much time has passed, and decipleship has all but ceased, this is an arduous task, and there is no short cut available. One must be diligent and study for themself.
There is an up side, you can do it, and this is a little tip. It's all about Jesus, every bit of it, from begining to end.
The Garden; Jesus
The Flood; Jesus
The temple; Jesus
The law; Jesus
The prophecies; Jesus
The Gospel; Jesus
The church; Jesus
The apocalypse; also Jesus.

The great reformation (1st century) came when Jesus was here. The 15th century is a copy by the same father of lies attempting to make the word of God the gospel of our salvation (sola scriptura) without effect.

The church at the time of Jesus had the same understanding as we do by the same spirit of faith (sola scriptura)

Some how the word rest the English translation of the Greek word sabbath became a time sensitive word .Destroying the use of the word rest wherever the word does appear .

A proper paraphrase would leave out the Greek word al together sabbath . It just adds to the confusion wondering and doubting. .

The word week a time sensitive word is used to replace rest. The word week was not even coined in the Greek until much later.

Oddly in the Youngs literal uses the word rest once correctly to establish the first of new era of rest. The new testament . But then like other paraphraser they revert to a time senititive word week 9 times .

(My addition)

Mathew 28: 1 King James In the end of the sabbath (rest) , as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, (rest) ,came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

Matthew 28 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) And on the eve of the sabbaths(rest) , at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, (new testament era) came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

The ceremonial sabbath is a weekend rest . Saturday and Sunday . The last and the first. The alpha and omega.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

The great reformation (1st century) came when Jesus was here. The 15th century is a copy by the same father of lies attempting to make the word of God the gospel of our salvation (sola scriptura) without effect.

So you think the roman catholic church circa the 15th century was operating as per sola scriptural, and that Luther along with other reformers were attempting to derail that?

 

[Ogom]

Why? The history books and the scriptures do not support that theory.

there are a bunch of ideas on when Jesus rose, much disagreement and such so this is probably not a real important thing to know. what's important is asking God's will and following it as much as we can know.

 

[Ogom]

I have just read 10 different books about the life of the New Testament Church all from various perspectives, and everyone says that the NTC met on the Sabbath.

As for your comment that if Constantine had not decided on Sunday we would all be going to church on Saturday, I am not into speculation. I prefer to stick with the facts.

Remember that the one man was the Roman Emperor.

yes, the Roman powers decided alot for Christians down through the ages i have heard. it is not a good idea to follow Rome or their rulers.

follow God. ask Him which day to keep.

 

[Ogom]

The great reformation (1st century) came when Jesus was here. The 15th century is a copy by the same father of lies attempting to make the word of God the gospel of our salvation (sola scriptura) without effect.

The church at the time of Jesus had the same understanding as we do by the same spirit of faith (sola scriptura)

Some how the word rest the English translation of the Greek word sabbath became a time sensitive word .Destroying the use of the word rest wherever the word does appear .

A proper paraphrase would leave out the Greek word al together sabbath . It just adds to the confusion wondering and doubting. .

The word week a time sensitive word is used to replace rest. The word week was not even coined in the Greek until much later.

Oddly in the Youngs literal uses the word rest once correctly to establish the first of new era of rest. The new testament . But then like other paraphraser they revert to a time senititive word week 9 times .

(My addition)

Mathew 28: 1 King James In the end of the sabbath (rest) , as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, (rest) ,came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

Matthew 28 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) And on the eve of the sabbaths(rest) , at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, (new testament era) came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

The ceremonial sabbath is a weekend rest . Saturday and Sunday . The last and the first. The alpha and omega.

that is interesting, thank-you. this would take time to study.

 

[garee]

So you think the roman catholic church circa the 15th century was operating as per sola scriptural, and that Luther along with other reformers were attempting to derail that?

They resisted the word of God (sola scriptura) calling it heresy . Luther supported all thing written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptura) it is also referred to as Moses (the law) and Elias (the prophets) those empowered by the holy Spirit .together making one perfect law . The just (the father) and justifier. (the Son of man Jesus the prophet) .

 

[Dino246]

Yes they take requirements of the OT ceremonies laws as shadows laws

That doesn't make any sense.

They refuse to look at the two different renderings of the ten commandments in which the different reasoning is given as a parable .Like the ceremonial circummsion they look to the surface not looking for the hidden understanding. They worship the shadows . The fulfillment of the first born our bloody husband Christ the substance .

Wrong on two counts. Judaizers are in error because they don't understand that the new covenant in Christ's blood supersedes the old covenant. It has nothing whatsoever to do with two versions of the ten commandments. Also, there are no parables in either version of the ten commandments.

They must make it about their own flesh as a self edifying lying wonder. Refusing to mix faith (the unseen eternal) in what they see or hear. literalizing away the gospel understanding.

Again you are dragging irrelevant ideas into the discussion. When will you learn what "relevant" means?

The time of reformation came. The 70 foot veil was torn form the top to the bottom indicating the foreskin of the first born

Garbage. Nothing in the Bible supports such a wacky idea. Not only is it wrong, it's disgusting.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Worship, give thanks, confess and repent DAILY, minute by minute is best.

I prefer to worship on the day of RESURECTION, not the day He was tortured on the cross.
AND we are admonished not to argue over things that do not matter (because there are TONS of things that do!)

 

[garee]

that is interesting, thank-you. this would take time to study.

Thanks for the reply.

And not to push the issue. I would share.

Saturday the last day, the day of preparation. The only work they could perform boiling or baking under a wooden campfire. It was a work they could rest in knowing it was God working in them to both will and empower. It was to be eaten on the first day. Two days as if it was one. I think you could say like the Father and Son working as one God.

Exodus 12: 16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.

One person who for some reason decided to boil the Manna (what is it) gathered fire wood on the first day and as a example to the Israelites he was put to death indicating he had no faith that could please God not seen. Gathering was forbade on sabbath day the first day. It should of been finished on the other sabbath day (7th)

Numbers 15:31-33 King James Version (KJV) Because he hath despised the word of the Lord, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him. And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.

Informing us twice gathering sticks .Twice used to emphasize the point. He repeats twice in that way in many parables.

Not popular but by looking at the reasoning of the fourth commandment. One is calculated from the last day (7) the other parables the first day(1) .The weekend ceremonial law as a shadow of the eternal rest we receive when we do hear his voice and harden not of hearts . The Alfa and Omega. The just and justifier.

Our rest is as long as today is today (under the sun) If we do hear the voice of his will and do not harden our hearts it empowers us revealing who does the work of making our hard hearts softer. Stone to living flesh . He informs us we should believe knowing it is him who both will and empowers us to to his good pleasure without murmuring.

One day to prepare our hearts and foods to be shared with a neighbor and another day after prayer to work it out to his glory prepared the day before . The sabbath fast defined in Isaiah 58. The true fast a day to share the gospel . A day heard on high. prayer and fasting sharing the manna .

The last day. . .

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Coupled with the first.

Deuteronomy 5: 15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

The true fast prayer heard on high and the power to perform it.

Note. . .(gospel metaphors)

Isaiah58: 4-7 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high. Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the Lord? Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Need to stop arguing over trivials, there are false doctrines among even the most sincere believers that are leading others astray from the great truths of the doctrines of grace. If you worship in truth you should be worshipping EVERY DAY - adoration, confessing, thanksgiving and supplication to know the TRUTH in all things.

 

[garee]

That doesn't make any sense.


Wrong on two counts. Judaizers are in error because they don't understand that the new covenant in Christ's blood supersedes the old covenant. It has nothing whatsoever to do with two versions of the ten commandments. Also, there are no parables in either version of the ten commandments.


Again you are dragging irrelevant ideas into the discussion. When will you learn what "relevant" means?


Garbage. Nothing in the Bible supports such a wacky idea. Not only is it wrong, it's disgusting.

Doesn't make any sense. Did you try mixing faith?

Parables what's that? .What are they used for and why did Jesus purpose to hide the unseen understanding. . giving it to those who have some faith.? ???

I will learn what "relevant" means as soon as you learn what "circular reasoning" as a law not subject to change means.

Whats was wrong with Jesus that the apostles had to vote in a new alfa dog greatest leader? Was he disgusting and in need of mental heath? Or did he hide the meaning of the parables just as he has informed us ?

What was the manner of spirit that the apostles knew not of that caused Jesus to rebuke them.? The faithless manner.?

 

[Blik]

It was people's adherence to Gods way of serving Him that failed, God made no mistake..people go there own way. Israel failed to maintain the OT system of service. God then superceded that system of service in the New Covenant.

The OT is NOT a "system of service". Serving the Lord has never been a system to achieve salvation, not ever. That system was the very same then as it is now, blood is required for the salvation of souls.

Lev. 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

 

[Dino246]

Doesn't make any sense. Did you try mixing faith?

Are you suggesting that I mix faith with nonsense? Think that through carefully.

Parables what's that? .What are they used for and why did Jesus purpose to hide the unseen understanding. . giving it to those who have some faith.? ???

Explained repeatedly.

I will learn what "relevant" means as soon as you learn what "circular reasoning" as a law not subject to change means.

Here's the truth of the matter: I introduced the term, "circular reasoning" to our conversation. I know what it means. You don't, despite my explanation and provision of links to other explanations. If you want to demonstrate your ignorance to the world, you go right ahead.

Whats was wrong with Jesus that the apostles had to vote in a new alfa dog greatest leader? Was he disgusting and in need of mental heath? Or did he hide the meaning of the parables just as he has informed us ?

Jesus explained the parables to His disciples, as the Scripture states.

 

[Benadam]

but, since Jesus rose on sun,. then that would be the day they meet , right?

The Son rose.
The sun rose.

Like it was made for english.

Yep they gathered to break bread on Sunday and they celebrated the Sabbath .....went to synagogue to preach the Gospel.....but in time they weren't allowed to go there.......the Holy Spirit guided them to the Truth of the Sabbath. The seven days of creation will go through fire. The eighth day is the New Day and it's the first day of the week. Sunday. Grace and Peace

 

[CS1]

While this all makes us feel good, where is the verse God instructed us to commemorate the resurrection every Sunday? If there is no such verse then Hosea 4 applies where God tells us that He hates our self-appointed days.

no that is truth. And you were given Biblical proof. IF you did not know "Commemorate" mean to Honnor, remember, and recognize. 1cor 11:20-25


Key points:

• Therefore when you come together
• I have received from the lord
• I deliver to you
• Do in remembrance of me
• This as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.
• You proclaim the Lord's death till HE comes.

Luke 24:6
John 16:4
2tim 2:8
Jude 1:17
Rev 3:3

You may not like the word Commemorate But the Bible says to render honor where honor is due. The death Burial and Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ is to be honored and remembered and commemorated. What a backward context to Hosea. The Word of God says this is the day that the Lord Has made I WILL REJOICE And Be glad in it. You are in error.

 

[wattie]

The OT is NOT a "system of service". Serving the Lord has never been a system to achieve salvation, not ever. That system was the very same then as it is now, blood is required for the salvation of souls.

Lev. 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Yes, eternal salvation has always been the same, OT and NT, not by a system of service but by grace through faith in the Redeemer. But the way people serve God in response to having eternal salvation has been through different systems of service. OT covenant to NT covenant.

 

[Blik]

Yes, eternal salvation has always been the same, OT and NT, not by a system of service but by grace through faith in the Redeemer. But the way people serve God in response to having eternal salvation has been through different systems of service. OT covenant to NT covenant.

I haven't found any scripture telling us there is a difference in service. The new covenant tells us there is a difference in how God communicates with us. In the OT God gave commandments for physical rites to lead them to obeying the spirit of the Lord. The new covenant told us that now God will put these commandments in our hearts and minds and God took away the need to obey the physical ways we were reminded of them.

Scripture then in the OT centered on how they were to live after forgiven, in the NT it centered on following our spirit after forgiven. As far as service, both were the same. We are to give sin for forgiveness through blood and then live in the forgiven state it makes us. I am not sure how to explain that, but Paul explains it well in scripture. In both the NT and OT, a forgiven person is not to want to sin any more. We still sin, but our desire to sin changes.

 

[Blik]

Yes, eternal salvation has always been the same, OT and NT, not by a system of service but by grace through faith in the Redeemer. But the way people serve God in response to having eternal salvation has been through different systems of service. OT covenant to NT covenant.

Could you explain how you find that the new covenant changed the "system of service". Perhaps I am not understanding what you mean by a system of service, that phrase is not in scripture.

 

[wattie]

Could you explain how you find that the new covenant changed the "system of service". Perhaps I am not understanding what you mean by a system of service, that phrase is not in scripture.

In the Old Testament, there is service to God through sacrificing animals with keeping the Mosaic laws plus levitical laws. In the New Testament, with the New Covenant there is service to God through God's local churches, in serving others through them.