The End, the A.C., Revelation and the rest of it.

peldom10 · Sep 20, 2020

I thought......
we have no capacity sufficient to understand God's plan...don't go there.
..."somethings are reserved for our Father's knowledge only..."
...."it will be revealed in due time".....
..."not Christ...only God knows the day and hour of Christs' 2nd advent"....

Ours is to be prepared, get our work for Christ done and look up....for our time grows nye.

et al.

Ahwatukee · Sep 20, 2020

iamsoandso said:

Yes, I just explained all of that in the previous post. God's coming wrath is not just in regards to the beast, his image and his mark, but will be the fulfillment of the Day of the Lord because of sin in general! The worshiping of the beast, his image and receiving his mark, does not begin until the middle of the seven years. That said, the seals and part of the trumpet judgments of wrath will have already been going on before the worshiping of the beast begins, when he proclaims himself to be God.

According to Daniel 9:27, the time period of God's wrath will be seven years in length. It will be the last seven years of the seventy seven year periods that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem.

That seven years begins with that ruler, the antichrist, establishing a seven year agreement with many (Israel being one of the many) where in the middle of the seven years he will cause that sacrifices and offerings that will have been going on, to cease. Where at which time he will set up that abomination that causes the desolation, which is when Israel flees out into the wilderness and is cared for by God during that last 3 1/2 years as described in Matt.24:15-22 & Rev.12:6, 14.

The first seal rider on the white horse, is representing the emergence of the antichrist.

The second seal rider on the red horse represents peace being taken from the earth so that men kill one another

The third seal rider on the black horse represents world-wide famine

The fourth seal rider on the pale green horse is death with Hades, who are given authority to kill a fourth of the earth.

All of the seals above and much of the trumpets are apart of God's wrath, which will take place prior to the beast, his image and his mark becoming mandatory.

As I have I said in all of the previous posts, God's wrath is not specifically being poured out because of the beast, his image and his mark, but because of mankind's sins in general. The worshiping of the beast, his image and his mark are just part of what will be going on during the time of God's wrath. God's reasons for is wrath are found in the scriptures that I provided from Zephaniah and Isaiah:

I will punish the world for its evil and the wicked for their iniquity.

I will end the haughtiness of the arrogant and lay low the pride of the ruthless.

and because of the following:

"Now the rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the works of their hands. They did not stop worshiping demons and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone, and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk. Furthermore, they did not repent of their murder, sorcery, sexual immorality, and theft."

To reemphasize, the Day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath, is not specifically regarding the worship of the beast, his image and the receiving of his mark. These are just events that will be taking place during the time of God's wrath, which will also invoke God's punishment. God's wrath will begin to be poured out before the beast, his image and his mark begin.

iamsoandso · Sep 20, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

Yes, I just explained all of that in the previous post. God's coming wrath is not just in regards to the beast, his image and his mark, but will be the fulfillment of the Day of the Lord because of sin in general! The worshiping of the beast, his image and receiving his mark, does not begin until the middle of the seven years. That said, the seals and part of the trumpet judgments of wrath will have already been going on before the worshiping of the beast begins, when he proclaims himself to be God.

According to Daniel 9:27, the time period of God's wrath will be seven years in length. It will be the last seven years of the seventy seven year periods that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem.

That seven years begins with that ruler, the antichrist, establishing a seven year agreement with many (Israel being one of the many) where in the middle of the seven years he will cause that sacrifices and offerings that will have been going on, to cease. Where at which time he will set up that abomination that causes the desolation, which is when Israel flees out into the wilderness and is cared for by God during that last 3 1/2 years as described in Matt.24:15-22 & Rev.12:6, 14.

The first seal rider on the white horse, is representing the emergence of the antichrist.

The second seal rider on the red horse represents peace being taken from the earth so that men kill one another

The third seal rider on the black horse represents world-wide famine

The fourth seal rider on the pale green horse is death with Hades, who are given authority to kill a fourth of the earth.

All of the seals above and much of the trumpets are apart of God's wrath, which will take place prior to the beast, his image and his mark becoming mandatory.

As I have I said in all of the previous posts, God's wrath is not specifically being poured out because of the beast, his image and his mark, but because of mankind's sins in general. The worshiping of the beast, his image and his mark are just part of what will be going on during the time of God's wrath. God's reasons for is wrath are found in the scriptures that I provided from Zephaniah and Isaiah:

I will punish the world for its evil and the wicked for their iniquity.

I will end the haughtiness of the arrogant and lay low the pride of the ruthless.

and because of the following:

"Now the rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the works of their hands. They did not stop worshiping demons and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone, and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk. Furthermore, they did not repent of their murder, sorcery, sexual immorality, and theft."

To reemphasize, the Day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath, is not specifically regarding the worship of the beast, his image and the receiving of his mark. These are just events that will be taking place during the time of God's wrath, which will also invoke God's punishment. God's wrath will begin to be poured out before the beast, his image and his mark begin.

It doesn't seem to agree with with us being gathered unto him as in verse 1 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Thessalonians 2&version=KJV as in Paul's explanation that is he seems to think that that man of sin will come and then we will be gathered unto the Lord.

Ahwatukee · Sep 21, 2020

iamsoandso said:

The reason that people believe that Paul is saying that the man of sin must come before the church is gathered, is because they misread the scripture, which I am going to explain as I have in previous posts. Below is the scripture in question:

=====================================================================
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.
=====================================================================

If you will notice in the scripture above, Paul begins with "the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him." Then in verse 2, he makes reference to the Day of the Lord, which though close in proximity, are two different events.

Our being gathered to the Lord, is when He appears and calls up His church, with the resurrection of the dead believers taking place first and then those believers who are still alive being changed and caught up with them. In Paul's letter to Titus, he calls our gathering the blessed hope of which Paul said to comfort one another with those words.

In opposition, "The Day of the Lord" is the time of God's wrath. People miss this change in the scripture from "the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him" vs. "The Day of the Lord," interpreting them as being the same event, which they are not. Because of their error of not recognizing Paul's change from 'the Lord's coming and our being gathered to Him' to 'the Day of the Lord' they interpret it as in the following paraphrase:

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him has already come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.

Do you see the error? Paul referred to 'the Day of the Lord" and not 'the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him.'

The scripture is saying that "the Day of the Lord" will not come until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, not our being gathered.

* The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him = the catching up of the church (rapture)

* The Day of the Lord = The time period of God's wrath

The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him takes place first, with the Day of the Lord beginning thereafter.

I studied the heck out of this scripture, inside out and upside down, because I wanted to understand it, because I knew that since Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely, that believers could not and would not go through the time of His wrath. However, the answer becomes very clear once you recognize Paul's change from "the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to Him" vs. "The Day of the Lord," also referred to in verse 3 as 'that day.'

May the Lord open your eyes to this truth, as well as to everyone else who is reading this.

iamsoandso · Sep 21, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

Ahwatukee my friend,and I do count you as my friend in Christ as well as an friend whom we as well others have frequently discussed these matters on this forum. I wanted to state that to you to so that you would not think in any manner that the things I might say are meant in disrespect.

I fully understand that you have studied these matters for over forty years which is good, you often state this both to me and others. That said though there are others who might make that same statement also,some thirty years others only twenty but as in my case about sixty or so years now. I notice others who might shake their heads at this who may be eighty years or more in study so I rarely bring up my age or years of study. If we remember there were old men of the Sanhedrin who spoke of Jesus not being yet fifty that we know from Scripture did not understand. Again I don't mean to trivialize your years of study in disrespect but simply am stating there are many who are elderly and have devoted many years of study among the members in the forum.

As to address what you stated in your post it seems that you think, that I think that we would be present at the time of Gods wrath. I don't think we will be present or suffer Gods wrath at all. What I have stated in my questions to you are in regard to being present when that MoS is come but I never used "Gods wrath" to describe it. I notice that you see the image,mark,MoS ect. as part of Gods wrath as if he(God) is the one who is responsible for those things taking place. What I do think is that the MoS comes,sets up an image, demands worship,mark ect. then afterwards the wrath is poured upon them and we are resurrected/caught up after the SoP and prior to Gods wrath.

I think that to examine 2 Thess. 2 in great detail would be very helpful but in 2020 we don't posses the autograph(original) of Paul's letter https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/2.htm and so we would not be able narrow down the things you are stating as proofs. In the textual variants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textual_variants_in_the_Second_Epistle_to_the_Thessalonians of 2 Thess. 2 the word Lord/Christ ect. appear in some manuscripts but are different in others. So then we would be narrowed down to which interpretation we might see agrees with our idea of belief on the matter.

Ahwatukee · Sep 21, 2020

iamsoandso said:

As I previously stated, the reason for God's coming wrath will not be specifically because of the beast, his image and his mark. But will be a time that has been prophesied about and will be poured out because of the rejecting of His Son and their continuing to willfully live according to the sinful nature.

It is your placement of God's wrath that is in error. The wrath of God, which begins at the opening of the first seal, takes place 3 1/2 years prior to the image being set up. And if you are able to except it, the image that the false prophet has the inhabitants of world make in honor of the first beast is that abomination spoken of in Daniel 9:27, which is that idolatrous image which will be set up in the holy place of which both Daniel and Jesus spoke of in Daniel 9:27 and Matt.24:15-22. Therefore, God's wrath will have already been in progress 3 1/2 years before the abomination/image has been set up and prior to the beast, his image and his mark.

We don't need the autograph of Paul's letter to understand this. As I have explained, it is his use of the terms "The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to him" vs. "The Day of the Lord." Once you recognize the change it makes sense. I challenge you to do a study on "The Day of the Lord" and you will find that the content always has to do with God's wrath and is never a blessing (Amos 5:18). Regarding this, believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath because Jesus already did, satisfying it completely. Therefore, from a legal standpoint, since God's wrath has been satisfied on behalf of all believers, then we cannot be on the earth during that time, because His wrath will come upon the whole earth and everyone will be exposed to it. This is also supported by the fact that the word "church" is never used again through chapters 6 thru 18. To be clear about this, below is the chronological order of events:

* The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him

* The Day of the Lord: the period of God's wrath beginning with the first seal being opened which is the emergence of the antichrist
and followed by the rest of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment throughout the entire period of wrath leading up to the Lord's
return to end the age.

* The abomination/image which is set up in the middle of that period of God's wrath, as well as the mark of the beast as the only way
of electronic buying and selling

* The pouring out of the seventh bowl

* The Lord's return to the earth to end the age with the church following Him out of heaven riding on white horses and his angels
also

* The beast and false prophet captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire

* All who will have worshiped the beast, his image and received his mark are killed by the double-edged sword which proceeds from
the Lord's mouth

* Satan is seized and thrown into and sealed in the Abyss for a thousand years

* Millennial Kingdom

=====================================================================

The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him followed by:

|------------------------------------------ T H E W R A T H OF G O D -----------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------- S E A L S - T R U M P E T S - B O W L S ---------------------------------------------|

The time of God's wrath (The Day of the Lord) will be recognizable by the apostacy having occurred and the man of lawlessness being revealed.

iamsoandso · Sep 21, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

As I previously stated, the reason for God's coming wrath will not be specifically because of the beast, his image and his mark. But will be a time that has been prophesied about and will be poured out because of the rejecting of His Son and their continuing to willfully live according to the sinful nature.

It is your placement of God's wrath that is in error. The wrath of God, which begins at the opening of the first seal, takes place 3 1/2 years prior to the image being set up. And if you are able to except it, the image that the false prophet has the inhabitants of world make in honor of the first beast is that abomination spoken of in Daniel 9:27, which is that idolatrous image which will be set up in the holy place of which both Daniel and Jesus spoke of in Daniel 9:27 and Matt.24:15-22. Therefore, God's wrath will have already been in progress 3 1/2 years before the abomination/image has been set up and prior to the beast, his image and his mark.

We don't need the autograph of Paul's letter to understand this. As I have explained, it is his use of the terms "The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to him" vs. "The Day of the Lord." Once you recognize the change it makes sense. I challenge you to do a study on "The Day of the Lord" and you will find that the content always has to do with God's wrath and is never a blessing (Amos 5:18). Regarding this, believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath because Jesus already did, satisfying it completely. Therefore, from a legal standpoint, since God's wrath has been satisfied on behalf of all believers, then we cannot be on the earth during that time, because His wrath will come upon the whole earth and everyone will be exposed to it. This is also supported by the fact that the word "church" is never used again through chapters 6 thru 18. To be clear about this, below is the chronological order of events:

* The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him

* The Day of the Lord: the period of God's wrath beginning with the first seal being opened which is the emergence of the antichrist
and followed by the rest of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment throughout the entire period of wrath leading up to the Lord's
return to end the age.

* The abomination/image which is set up in the middle of that period of God's wrath, as well as the mark of the beast as the only way
of electronic buying and selling

* The pouring out of the seventh bowl

* The Lord's return to the earth to end the age with the church following Him out of heaven riding on white horses and his angels
also

* The beast and false prophet captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire

* All who will have worshiped the beast, his image and received his mark are killed by the double-edged sword which proceeds from
the Lord's mouth

* Satan is seized and thrown into and sealed in the Abyss for a thousand years

* Millennial Kingdom

=====================================================================.

The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him followed by:

|------------------------------------------ T H E W R A T H OF G O D -----------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------- S E A L S - T R U M P E T S - B O W L S ---------------------------------------------|

The time of God's wrath (The Day of the Lord) will be recognizable by the apostacy having occurred and the man of lawlessness being revealed.

And that pesky deadly wound that is healed? Think through what your saying and examine Revelation 17:8 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation 17:8&version=KJV and notice that at the time the angel eplained this to John(approx.ad96) it was in the pit(present tense) and it ascends out of it... Rare few look for this in their eschatology and are caught in it's net.

GaryA · Sep 21, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

Brother, you need to study it some more...

2 Thessalonians 2:

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

If verse 1 is the "topic of concern", why would Paul then continue to speak about something else?

Think about it...

The phrase 'the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ', the phrase 'the day of Christ', and the phrase 'that day' [shall not come] are all talking about the same thing - the Second Coming of Christ.

Paul is talking about the same singular topic in all three of the above verses. He does not "change" to something else the moment he indicates what he is going to be talking about.

GaryA · Sep 21, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

No brother - I'm sorry - but, your insistence that "God's wrath" is represented in the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials - and any other End Times "tribulation" occurance - is in error.

Therefore - your "placement" of God's wrath is what is in error.

It is the one thing - more than any other - that "throws off" your entire eschatology.

I am being very serious. And, I am saying this with all of the Christian love I can muster...

You need to reconsider it - and, study it some more...

Absolutely · Sep 22, 2020

Runningman said:

Matthew 24:29-31

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’
30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Not the rapture.
Angels gathering.....not Jesus.

A gathrring in heaven...not earth
No dead rasied.
100% not the rapture

Absolutely · Sep 22, 2020

Just_Jo said:

Almost all believers have no clue that the end times dynamics are ALL CENTERED in the gathering of the bride.

All events are to be viewed through that prism.

If you start from another place....you will NEVER get your end times bearings.

Start with heaven's purpose.
God is a God of purpose.

1)the gentile church's time ending.
2) gathering of the bride [mat 25 and the last supper dialogue]
4) the mark of the beast happens right away. It is necessary to speed those left behind into martyrdom. (See "a innumerable number b 4 the throne" [Christians...millions of them killed right at the beginning....refusing the mark]) )
5) the jews pursued by satan and ushered to safety. ...again because of the mark requirement
6) NOW THE WORLD IS PERSECUTED.
7) Time for the gathering of "ripe fruit" the Convent pple jews as messianic jews (rev 14 in about the middle trib, 3.5,or halfway point/stage)
[This is the "first miracle "by Jesus. At a wedding,where the declaration is made "you saved the best for last" (note that the gathering in rev 14 of the jews has "first fruits" and then main harvest of RIPE FRUIT....not barley or wheat....grapes/wine/fruit)

If you CENTER on what heaven is centered (bride/groom/harvest/purpose)....then it ALL fits.
Every single thing fits at that point

EVERYTHING

Ask yourself why this basic dynamic is missing?????

The greatest thing that heaven is anticipating is absent in all end times discussion.
They are clueless as to the bride/groom/wedding/ marriage supper dynamic that is the center of purpose.

The rapture is simply a vehicle to bring the gentile bride in (ruth being the main reason why boaz redeems the land....with naomi brought along due to lineage/the jews)

Without the bride being the primary focus,events are just guessed at and transposed as facts, men reasoning "this and that" outside the wedding dynamic.

Iow in most end times discussion ,the wedding/bride/ruth dynamic is placed as indirect or kinda abstract, rather than the apex of purpose that is really is.

Absolutely · Sep 22, 2020

iamsoandso said:

I think it says "revealed"
Obama was "revealed" to any believer before he ever took power.

Absolutely · Sep 22, 2020

GaryA said:

Brother, you need to study it some more...

2 Thessalonians 2:

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

If verse 1 is the "topic of concern", why would Paul then continue to speak about something else?

Think about it...

The phrase 'the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ', the phrase 'the day of Christ', and the phrase 'that day' [shall not come] are all talking about the same thing - the Second Coming of Christ.

Paul is talking about the same singular topic in all three of the above verses. He does not "change" to something else the moment he indicates what he is going to be talking about.

If you are trying to make a point that the rapture and the second coming at the end of the 7 year gt are one and the same then you are definately not studying.

cv5 · Sep 22, 2020

I added these links to the other thread but I will add them to this thread also as I believe they are quite interesting and useful in context with the end times.

"Something for you to consider: If there is a global elite and they are actually satanic, and they actually do hate God and Jesus, and they have better and more information than anyone else on the planet, you and I had better be paying strict attention!"

https://vigilantcitizen.com/category/pics-of-the-month/

https://vigilantcitizen.com/category/musicbusiness/

Some interesting things on this YouTube channel.......

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzaVyRJPgEgYhZDE_uIkWBw

cv5 · Sep 22, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

Good day, Just_Jo!

First of all, I believe that the 2,300 evenings and mornings prophecy is referring to the event with Antiochus Epiphanes, (a type of antichrist. A foreshadow, if you will) when he desecrated the temple and persecuted the Jews from 171 - 165 BC. When Antiochus died, the Jews purified and rededicated the temple, just as Daniel had predicted. This is in fact is what Hanukkah is celebrating. Needless to say, this prophecy was fulfilled prior to the Lord's appearing on the earth. The prophecy that pertains to the coming antichrist, is regarding that last seven years of the decree of seventy seven year periods revealed in Daniel which is the tribulation period and specifically the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period also known as the great tribulation, which is referred to in Daniel and Revelation a time, times and half a time, 1260 days and 42 months.

This last seven years is divided up into two 3 1/2 year periods, with the setting up of the abomination marking the middle of the seven years, as revealed in Daniel 9:27. As I'm sure that you know, Israel does not currently have a temple. When that ruler, the antichrist makes his seven year covenant with Israel, they will be able rebuild their temple and begin sacrifice's and offerings once again. In fact, they have everything regarding the temple, its blueprints, the temple furniture, the priests robes, etc., etc., the teachings of the priestly responsibilities, ready to go. Therefore, when that seven year covenant is made, the fulfillment of that last seven years will begin with Israel and her temple, God picking up right where He left off in fulfillment of that last seven years of the decree of seventy sevens. This all takes place during the time of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

In any case, the 2,300 evenings and mornings prophecy has been fulfilled and has nothing to do with the unfulfilled prophecy of the coming antichrist/beast in Revelation, only that it was a foreshadow of what is coming.

Church Gathered- | -------------------------------------- S E V E N Y E A R S -----------------------------------------------| -- Jesus Returns to earth
-----------------------| --------------------------- S E A L S / T R U M P E T S / B O W L S -----------------------------------| -- Beast cast into LOF
-----------------------| ---------------------------------------- G O D' S W R A T H ---------------------------------------------| -- Satan sealed in Abyss
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->| -- GTS Resurrected
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->| -- Millennial Kingdom

Absolutely correct re: the 2300 days. Daniel chapter 8 is clearly speaking of events that have already occurred during the intertestamental period.

cv5 · Sep 22, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

After a great deal of study, the scriptures pertaining to the end of the age basically crystallize/freeze into you are presenting.

You and I am come to almost precisely the same conclusion on these matters.
This of course is no accident.

The fact is that alternative views simply do not take into account all of the relevant scriptures, the whole counsel of God, so then they veer off into the ditch. Why and how this happens is really perfectly obvious to those who have a firm grasp on end time eschatology.

Unfortunately it is sometimes extremely difficult to get these people out of the ditch and back on the straight road!

cv5 · Sep 22, 2020

garee said:

Some say chapter 20 of Revelation is a parable The whole book of Revaltion is a parable. The first verses identifies it as not only inspired but the signified language of God, the poetic tongue. Called the "hidden mana" in chapter 2. The bread of unfamiliarity.

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

The signified tongue of God should be looked at through the prescription freely given to us for rightly dividing parables. .
2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Satan would turn those things upside down taking away the unseen understanding of the Potter .It would seem Christians understand by mixing faith with the things seen . . they are not the things seen but representatives or shadows.

The 144,000 as a unknow represents the whole bride of Christ made up of many (144,000) lively stones that make up the spiritual houses of God, the church. We look to the unseen things of God those he reveals in His signified tongue the gospel .

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

We walk by faith not by wondering .

2 Corinthians 5:7(For we walk by faith, not by sight )

People say Genesis is a myth but that doesn't account for the fact of the flood.
Facts matter. Reality matters. Observational reality matters.

When in doubt about what time it is on Gods calendar look to the nation Israel!
The biblical truth is that we are heading toward a climax. An end to this age

http://www.watchmanbiblestudy.com/BibleStudies/HIStoryOurFuture/Ezekiels430Days.html

cv5 · Sep 22, 2020

Just_Jo said:

Give it time (though we may have not much of it remaining).
To the mature it's like reading a newspaper. It's plain as day.

cv5 · Sep 22, 2020

Jackson123 said:

No........ that's what a wicked men do who are without God!
God is not the author of sin or wickedness that is what fallen men and fallen angels do.

In a sense what happens during the tribulation period is God getting out of the way and allowing men to sin to their maximum extreme, and then blasting them with severe judgments while they are doing it.

cv5 · Sep 22, 2020

iamsoandso said:

A solution that not a lot of people are acquainted with:
The term "the apostasy" should be correctly read "the departure" aka the Rapture!
This solves completely the problem that you have encountered.

https://www.pre-trib.org/articles/all-articles/message/the-departure-in-2-thessalonians-2-3/read

The End, the A.C., Revelation and the rest of it.

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