Are the words of Jesus not for Christians?

[lenna]

A few times lately in this forum someone comes along and discredits what Jesus states in the gospels. To date, we have been told that the gospels, the book of Acts and James are not for Gentile Christians. no teaching to be found for Gentiles there

The so called 'Jesus Seminar' dealt with Jesus some 50 years or so ago and I wonder if it has had an effect on modern teaching in Christian collages/universities, churches, especially the popular ones teaching 'gospel light' and so on

The "Jesus Seminar" was begun by New Testament "scholar" Robert Funk in the 1970s. It was Funk’s desire to rediscover the "historical Jesus" that was hidden, he believed, behind almost 2,000 years of Christian traditions, myths, and legends. The Jesus Seminar was created to examine the biblical gospels and other early Christian literature to discover who Jesus truly was and what He truly said.

The Jesus Seminar was (and still is) comprised almost entirely of individuals who deny the inspiration, authority, and inerrancy of the Bible. The agenda of the Jesus Seminar is not to discover who the historical Jesus was. Rather, the purpose of the Jesus Seminar is to attack what the Bible clearly says about who Jesus is and what He taught.

So then you have to ask yourself what it is that Jesus taught and why has it become questionable even by those who purport to believe in the deity of Christ?

the Jesus Seminar goes further though. The "scholars" of the Jesus Seminar do not believe in the deity of Christ, the resurrection of Christ, the miracles of Christ, or the substitutionary atonement death of Christ. Perhaps most significantly, they deny that the Holy Spirit is the author of all Scripture

is there a difference or some fine dividing line between excluding the gospels from teaching about Christianity or just saying 'we don't believe'?

I've seen some responses that seem to indicate the Bible is like a smorgasbord...just pick what you fancy and pass on the rest .

wondering what others think about this?

 

[Grandpa]

All the words of Jesus are for Christians.

But not all the words of Jesus are understood by Christians.


But then I wonder, maybe the understanding we have of the Lords Words are exactly the understanding that He gives us based on our faith/lack thereof.

 

[lenna]

All the words of Jesus are for Christians.

But not all the words of Jesus are understood by Christians.


But then I wonder, maybe the understanding we have of the Lords Words are exactly the understanding that He gives us based on our faith/lack thereof.

something to consider in that last sentence, only I would hesitate with the use of the word faith

too bad this could not be further developed...but then it would take a discussion and not a debate

all the words of Jesus are not understood at all, nor for that matter, the Bible period

sigh

 

[Guojing]

A few times lately in this forum someone comes along and discredits what Jesus states in the gospels. To date, we have been told that the gospels, the book of Acts and James are not for Gentile Christians. no teaching to be found for Gentiles there

The so called 'Jesus Seminar' dealt with Jesus some 50 years or so ago and I wonder if it has had an effect on modern teaching in Christian collages/universities, churches, especially the popular ones teaching 'gospel light' and so on

The "Jesus Seminar" was begun by New Testament "scholar" Robert Funk in the 1970s. It was Funk’s desire to rediscover the "historical Jesus" that was hidden, he believed, behind almost 2,000 years of Christian traditions, myths, and legends. The Jesus Seminar was created to examine the biblical gospels and other early Christian literature to discover who Jesus truly was and what He truly said.

The Jesus Seminar was (and still is) comprised almost entirely of individuals who deny the inspiration, authority, and inerrancy of the Bible. The agenda of the Jesus Seminar is not to discover who the historical Jesus was. Rather, the purpose of the Jesus Seminar is to attack what the Bible clearly says about who Jesus is and what He taught.

So then you have to ask yourself what it is that Jesus taught and why has it become questionable even by those who purport to believe in the deity of Christ?

the Jesus Seminar goes further though. The "scholars" of the Jesus Seminar do not believe in the deity of Christ, the resurrection of Christ, the miracles of Christ, or the substitutionary atonement death of Christ. Perhaps most significantly, they deny that the Holy Spirit is the author of all Scripture

is there a difference or some fine dividing line between excluding the gospels from teaching about Christianity or just saying 'we don't believe'?

I've seen some responses that seem to indicate the Bible is like a smorgasbord...just pick what you fancy and pass on the rest .

wondering what others think about this?

Surely you would agree that not every statement by Jesus in the 4 gospels are for the Body of Christ today? Matthew 10:5 and Matthew 15:24 are some examples.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Here's a quote I fairly agree with, that is somewhat succinct (and pertaining to the subject of this thread):

[quoting Thomas Ice-]

"Five Parabolic Illustrations
"[re: Matt24] These parables or illustrations of Jesus are as follows: First, the fig tree illustration (24:32- 35); second, the days of Noah illustration (24:36- 39); third, a comparison of two men and women illustration (24:40- 41); fourth, the faithful house holder illustration (24:42- 44); and fifth, the wise servant illustration (24:45- 51).

"These five parables are important lessons that relate to Israel. In fact, I would go so far as to say that all the parables in the New Testament relate directly to Israel. Often they relate to Israel's rejection of Jesus as their Messiah and speak of consequences that will flow from such an act. Christ told His disciples in Matthew 13:10-17 that He would speak to "this people" (Israel) in order to blind them to the truth because of their rejection of Jesus as the Messiah. However, believers could come to understand the meaning of His parables because we are receptive of the revelation offered by Christ. Therefore, they all relate to Israel in some way, shape, or form and usually tell us something about God's plan for the future.

"The parables within the Olivet Discourse, when they speak of a coming, all relate to the second coming and not the rapture of the church. This is true because the entire Olivet Discourse was given to Israel and relates to her tribulation and Christ's return at the end of that period. Truths relating to the rapture of the church are revealed exclusively in the New Testament Epistles, which were written specifically for the purpose of explaining the intent and nature of the Church age. [...]"

--Dr Thomas Ice [commentary on Matt24-25]

[end quoting; bold, underline, and bracketed inserts mine; parentheses original]



____________

[note: I've pointed out in past posts where do I see there is one parable that is stated to be "[which is a parable] for the present time": Hebrews 9:8-9a]

 

[Deuteronomy]

A few times lately in this forum someone comes along and discredits what Jesus states in the gospels. To date, we have been told that the gospels, the book of Acts and James are not for Gentile Christians.

Hi Lenna, below you'll find some of the Lord's final words to us, words which were spoken by Him just prior to His Ascension (so it would seem that these would be of particular importance). If He did not want what He taught in the Gospels to reach the ears of those living in the (Gentile) Nations, He certainly had a very odd way of putting it, yes

​

Matthew 24
14 This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the ~whole~ world as a testimony to ~all~ the nations.

Matthew 28
18 Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 Go therefore and make disciples of ~all~ the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20 ~teaching~ them to observe ~all~ that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Mark 16
15 Jesus said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation."

Acts 1
8 "You will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

Acts 9
15 The Lord said to him [Ananias], “Go, for he [Paul] is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel."​

~Deut

 

[Adstar]

A few times lately in this forum someone comes along and discredits what Jesus states in the gospels. To date, we have been told that the gospels, the book of Acts and James are not for Gentile Christians. no teaching to be found for Gentiles there

The so called 'Jesus Seminar' dealt with Jesus some 50 years or so ago and I wonder if it has had an effect on modern teaching in Christian collages/universities, churches, especially the popular ones teaching 'gospel light' and so on

The "Jesus Seminar" was begun by New Testament "scholar" Robert Funk in the 1970s. It was Funk’s desire to rediscover the "historical Jesus" that was hidden, he believed, behind almost 2,000 years of Christian traditions, myths, and legends. The Jesus Seminar was created to examine the biblical gospels and other early Christian literature to discover who Jesus truly was and what He truly said.

The Jesus Seminar was (and still is) comprised almost entirely of individuals who deny the inspiration, authority, and inerrancy of the Bible. The agenda of the Jesus Seminar is not to discover who the historical Jesus was. Rather, the purpose of the Jesus Seminar is to attack what the Bible clearly says about who Jesus is and what He taught.

So then you have to ask yourself what it is that Jesus taught and why has it become questionable even by those who purport to believe in the deity of Christ?

the Jesus Seminar goes further though. The "scholars" of the Jesus Seminar do not believe in the deity of Christ, the resurrection of Christ, the miracles of Christ, or the substitutionary atonement death of Christ. Perhaps most significantly, they deny that the Holy Spirit is the author of all Scripture

is there a difference or some fine dividing line between excluding the gospels from teaching about Christianity or just saying 'we don't believe'?

I've seen some responses that seem to indicate the Bible is like a smorgasbord...just pick what you fancy and pass on the rest .

wondering what others think about this?

I think the entire Word of God is the Word of God... people who deny the Words of Jesus, deny Jesus..

Woe to those who deny Jesus..

 

[stonesoffire]

A few times lately in this forum someone comes along and discredits what Jesus states in the gospels.


Lenna, your statement above is error. That was not what was said.

 

[Deuteronomy]

Hi Lenna, below you'll find some of the Lord's final words to us, words which were spoken by Him just prior to His Ascension (so it would seem that these would be of particular importance). If He did not want what He taught in the Gospels to reach the ears of those living in the (Gentile) Nations, He certainly had a very odd way of putting it, yes

​

Matthew 24​

14 This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the ~whole~ world as a testimony to ~all~ the nations.​

​

Matthew 28​

18 Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.​

19 Go therefore and make disciples of ~all~ the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,​

20 ~teaching~ them to observe ~all~ that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”​

​

Mark 16​

15 Jesus said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation."​

​

Acts 1​

8 "You will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”​

​

Acts 9​

15 The Lord said to him [Ananias], “Go, for he [Paul] is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel."​

~Deut

Hello again sister (@lenna), in summary, if there are members here who are trying to discredit what Jesus said by telling us that the Gospels were written for Jews alone (or if they are going even further than that by saying that the Gospels, Acts and James were written for Jews, or even "1st Century" Jews, alone), then I believe that you already know how very wrong they are (perhaps they have a presupposition that they are trying to fulfill and/or prove correct, but doing so requires that they hold such a belief about the Gospels, Acts and James?). Have they given you/us any proof that shows what they are saying is true

BTW, the Epistle of James was addressed to the Diaspora (dispersed Jews living in the Gentile Nations), but I don't believe that there is any indication that what is taught in James' Epistle was meant for them alone If there is any evidence of this in his Epistle, I haven't seen it. Rather, what is taught in the Epistle of James seems both omnitemporal and omnicultural (IOW, its truths seem applicable to all nations, tribes and tongues throughout history).

God bless you!

~Deut

 

[Guojing]

Hello again sister (@lenna), in summary, if there are members here who are trying to discredit what Jesus said by telling us that the Gospels were written for Jews alone (or if they are going even further than that by saying that the Gospels, Acts and James were written for Jews, or even "1st Century" Jews, alone), then I believe that you already know how very wrong they are (perhaps they have a presupposition that they are trying to fulfill and/or prove correct, but doing so requires that they hold such a belief about the Gospels, Acts and James?). Have they given you/us any proof that shows what they are saying is true

BTW, the Epistle of James was addressed to the Diaspora (dispersed Jews living in the Gentile Nations), but I don't believe that there is any indication that what is taught in James' Epistle was meant for them alone If there is any evidence of this in his Epistle, I haven't seen it. Rather, what is taught in the Epistle of James seems both omnitemporal and omnicultural (IOW, its truths seem applicable to all nations, tribes and tongues throughout history).

God bless you!

~Deut

How would you interpret 2 Cor 5:16 by Paul?

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Have you realized other than the Lord's supper, Paul never talked about anything Jesus said or did before the cross?

 

[jb]

ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2Tim 3v16

The heretic likes to pick and choose Scripture at the expense of Scripture to support their erroneous opinions!

It'll be the Scripture that they refuse to accept that will accuse them when the Lord Jesus judges His Church (at His 2nd Coming, ps. there is no 3th coming), the Body of Christ...

 

[Guojing]

ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2Tim 3v16

The heretic likes to pick and choose Scripture at the expense of Scripture to support their erroneous opinions!

It'll be the Scripture that they refuse to accept that will accuse them when the Lord Jesus judges His Church (at His 2nd Coming, ps. there is no 3th coming), the Body of Christ...

How would you respond to Jesus words in John 20:23 then, or even Mark 16:16-18 for that matter?

 

[Corban]

It seems to me that our esteemed lenna addressed two different points - both of which are valid. I'll reverse the order for ease of answering.

(1) Attack by infidels on the Person of Christ. This is shortly dispensed with by the historical fact that our Lord Jesus, His Person, His deity, His resurrection, and His very existence is always under attack. We can't stop it, but we should try to equip ourselves with solid answers. But at the end of the day, because our FAITH is based on what is NOT seen (Heb.11:1), we must expect not to convince the infidel.

(2) The opinion of some on this Forum that the contents of the Gospels is largely for Israel, or that they do not address the Christian. This is a far more subtle and dangerous attack because it comes from within our ranks and is mostly well-meaning. The answer to this threat is only slightly less simple than the first.

Because God chose Abraham and made a Covenant with him and his SEED, God was bound by His Words to approach Israel with the Solution to all the earth's problems - Jesus Messiah. So it is true that our Lord Jesus FIRST approached Israel with the glory and benefits of (i) sin and sins being dealt with, and (ii) His coming Kingdom as promised in Daniel. One would remove the main problem that Israel faced and which had caused their crisis - sin and sins, and once that was dealt with, Israel would again be elevated to leading and invincible Nation among the nations. But you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. But by Matthew Chapter 12, our Lord Jesus had been fully rejected and accused of being the emissary of Beelzebub. The Chapter ends with our Lord Jesus severing His connection with His brethren by the flesh.

From this moment on, our Lord Jesus starts to work with a NEW assembly which He calls His DISCIPLES. And the Lord shortly reveals a NEW assembly called "The Church". The three synoptic gospels reveal the Man Jesus in His role as King, Servant and normal Man in dealing with the SAME problems that faced Israel - namely, sin and sins, and the coming Kingdom. This time though, His teaching is directed at the NEW Assembly called His DISCIPLES. The fourth gospel, that of John, reveals Christ's deity for the purpose of returning man to his first estate in Eden - eating from the Tree of Life and thus have an orgainic union with God to be equipped to be in the image and likeness of God, and to be "up to the standard of Christ" to be His Bride.

What we have on the Forum is mostly people who have not seen this. They have not lifted up like an eagle to view the grand vista of God's purpose. They, for more than one reason, very often not their fault, stayed in the multifaceted puzzle of God's divine Revelation and have to contend daily with ... a PUZZLE. The solution is that that (i) we DEBATE, and (ii) that each attempts to be honest and accepting of a logical structured argument that leads to a logical end. And when we are forced to change our mind by this honesty, that we do not let that every present PRIDE cloud our judgment.

But THAT ... the matter of pride, is almost invincible. And THAT ... is why this problem will also not be solved in our time. The last Church is Laodicea. Matters will get worse before they get better. But let the DEBATE go on. We are bound to TESTIFY.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We have had some odd things said in here lately, I too have heard the gospels are for jews only, and that the church church is acts and beyond, except James, which is again for jews only.

its sad. But I think we are in the last days, and the closer we get the more people will make excuses not to hear the whole council of God,

 

[Guojing]

We have had some odd things said in here lately, I too have heard the gospels are for jews only, and that the church church is acts and beyond, except James, which is again for jews only.

its sad. But I think we are in the last days, and the closer we get the more people will make excuses not to hear the whole council of God,

Odd things like Matthew 10:5 and Matthew 15:24?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

O

Odd things like Matthew 10:5 and Matthew 15:24?

nothing odd about it
as was shown earlier the gospel of the kingdom shall 1st be proclaimed to the Jews THEN to Samaria then the the rest of the world

 

[Corban]

Odd things like Matthew 10:5 and Matthew 15:24?

But brother, what of the so-called Sermon on the Mount - Matthew 5, 6 and 7? 5:1 "... and when He was seated His disciples came to Him. 2 Then He opened His mouth and taught them (His disciples), saying ... ." Where is Israel in this? It is excluded for Moses said one thing but Jesus said another diametrically opposite thing. And what of Matthew Chapter 13? Our Lord Jesus said that He spoke in Parables so that ISRAEL would NOT understand the mysteries of the Kingdom.

And in Matthew 15:24 you hold back the rest of the narrative. In verse 22 the woman addresses Him as King of the Jews - the "Son of David". But she is a Canaanite - the cursed nation and mortal enemy of Israel. She unwittingly sets a battle field, and Jesus ignores her. She, at least, should have addressed Him as "son of Abraham", for to Abraham are blessings "on all the families of the earth" promised. But to David is given to KILL Canaanites! Even you will get no response from "the Son of David", for in the New Man there is "no Jew". You are no Jew. You belong to the New Man taken out of the Jews and out of the Nations. You must address Him as "Son of God" and not "Son of David". When the woman was honest and put herself in the right place - among the unclean (for a dog is unclean), and called Jesus "Lord", THEN ONLY did our Lord respond - and how - with a miracle. But one and a half Chapters back, "He came into His OWN COUNTRY", and could do only a few miracles. No wonder. In His "own country" and in a "synagogue", they did not even call Him "Son of David" (13:54-58). They were "OFFENDED" by Him (v.57). But the tax records of Caesar would have shown His lineage.

I think that the narrative of the Canaanite woman PROVES that Jesus had foresaken Israel and was set on healing the unclean.

 

[Guojing]

O
nothing odd about it
as was shown earlier the gospel of the kingdom shall 1st be proclaimed to the Jews THEN to Samaria then the the rest of the world

What are the contents of the gospel of the kingdom that was preached to the Jews first?

 

[Guojing]

But brother, what of the so-called Sermon on the Mount - Matthew 5, 6 and 7? 5:1 "... and when He was seated His disciples came to Him. 2 Then He opened His mouth and taught them (His disciples), saying ... ." Where is Israel in this? It is excluded for Moses said one thing but Jesus said another diametrically opposite thing. And what of Matthew Chapter 13? Our Lord Jesus said that He spoke in Parables so that ISRAEL would NOT understand the mysteries of the Kingdom.

And in Matthew 15:24 you hold back the rest of the narrative. In verse 22 the woman addresses Him as King of the Jews - the "Son of David". But she is a Canaanite - the cursed nation and mortal enemy of Israel. She unwittingly sets a battle field, and Jesus ignores her. She, at least, should have addressed Him as "son of Abraham", for to Abraham are blessings "on all the families of the earth" promised. But to David is given to KILL Canaanites! Even you will get no response from "the Son of David", for in the New Man there is "no Jew". You are no Jew. You belong to the New Man taken out of the Jews and out of the Nations. You must address Him as "Son of God" and not "Son of David". When the woman was honest and put herself in the right place - among the unclean (for a dog is unclean), and called Jesus "Lord", THEN ONLY did our Lord respond - and how - with a miracle. But one and a half Chapters back, "He came into His OWN COUNTRY", and could do only a few miracles. No wonder. In His "own country" and in a "synagogue", they did not even call Him "Son of David" (13:54-58). They were "OFFENDED" by Him (v.57). But the tax records of Caesar would have shown His lineage.

I think that the narrative of the Canaanite woman PROVES that Jesus had foresaken Israel and was set on healing the unclean.

So you agree that not all the sayings of Jesus are directed to us correct?

 

[Corban]

So you agree that not all the sayings of Jesus are directed to us correct?

May I answer with scripture?

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2nd Timothy 3:16).

So I must say that this scripture was directed to me - but maybe not for ALL points at once. But if the Author of the Book, and the Maker of the men who read it, says that ALL scripture is "profitable" ... then it is so. But if the author tells Peter that he will deny Him thrice before a cock crewed the next morning, I admit that that was not addressed to me personally for "reproof". But it was addressed to me "for instruction".

But I have a question for you. The opening verse of the four gospels tells that Jesus was seed of Abraham. And Abraham was not an Israelite. In what way is this verse NOT directed at me, seeing as Galatians 3:29 says that I have become seed of Abraham?