Calvinism and Context?

[cv5]

I'm not sure which post you're refering to, but your dilemma is false. Unless of course you think when Peter called Lot righteous it was self-righteousness, or when Ezekiel relayed God saying Job, Lot, and Daniel were righteous enough to deliver themselves only it was self righteousness, or when God called Job "blameless and upright" it was self-righteousness.

Let me refresh your memory. This post.

#983

 

[EleventhHour]

You took what I meant out of context..I was so shocked that you don't know what happened to Adam and Eve..that is why I said are you kidding.
Also your response to cv post that I quoted...I was absolutely shocked at what you replied.

Yet you do not expound, explain or discuss .. really what is your function here?

There you go, can we assume you know more than @Bbrdrd, @1ofthem @dcontroversal @Duskey @Nehemiah6 @throughfaith @Magenta and others combined then, since you are continually making this accusation of lack of knowledge on our part?

 

[jackrosie]

You are intentionally dodging responding to my post. Responding will blow away the smokescreen of self-righteousness you've raised.

God was not obligated to sacrifice his Son on our behalf. To provide us with His righteousness (not our righteousness!) His glory (not our glory) His worthiness (not our worthiness!) and Sonship.

You see the Bible is very clear: we had no righteousness, glory or worthiness. They had to be credited to our account, and even the faith to believe had to be provided.

It is all the work of God, a work outside ourselves, a work that glorifies God alone. We had no part in our own adoption, no participation, no parity, there was no negotiation between parties. God adopted us out of sheer pity and mercy and restored us to Sonship. And only He and the Son get all of the glory for this work.

Dig into do your Bible and you can confirm all of this.

Brilliant post......Amen!!.

 

[Bbrdrd]

You are intentionally dodging responding to my post. Responding will blow away the smokescreen of self-righteousness you've raised.

God was not obligated to sacrifice his Son on our behalf. To provide us with His righteousness (not our righteousness!) His glory (not our glory) His worthiness (not our worthiness!) and Sonship.

You see the Bible is very clear: we had no righteousness, glory or worthiness. They had to be credited to our account, and even the faith to believe had to be provided.

It is all the work of God, a work outside ourselves, a work that glorifies God alone. We had no part in our own adoption, no participation, no parity, there was no negotiation between parties. God adopted us out of sheer pity and mercy and restored us to Sonship. And only He and the Son get all of the glory for this work.

Dig into do your Bible and you can confirm all of this.

And this is precisely why I state you do not honor God with your doctrine. Instead you make His glory dependent on Him acting, on Him doing something for creation. God's glory did not increase with the cross, it doesn't increase when a sinner is saved, it doesn't increase no matter what happens or doesn't happen for creation.

The beauty is that He is not bound, nor obligated in any way yet He chose the path that cost Him so much because He valued us that much. We were not worthless things with no value but an immesurable treasure God saw fit to shed the precious blood of Jesus for.

Yet you think by demeaning and diminishing a treasure God saw so valueable you honor Him.

 

[EleventhHour]

God was not obligated to sacrifice his Son on our behalf.

That is right He did it because God is LOVE!

There is no obligation in Love is there?

Love is a huge problem for those who adhere to the tenets of Calvinism... so much so that they have to change that word in scripture too.

 

[jackrosie]

Yet you do not expound, explain or discuss .. really what is your function here?

There you go, can we assume you know more than @Bbrdrd, @1ofthem @dcontroversal @Duskey @Nehemiah6 @throughfaith @Magenta and others combined then, since you are continually making this accusation of lack of knowledge on our part?

Oh I do discuss...only you haven't a clue what I'm talking about.
I am here to spread the word of God.and as long God wants me here..here I will stay...until he moves me on.

What are you here for?

 

[jackrosie]

And this is precisely why I state you do not honor God with your doctrine. Instead you make His glory dependent on Him acting, on Him doing something for creation. God's glory did not increase with the cross, it doesn't increase when a sinner is saved, it doesn't increase no matter what happens or doesn't happen for creation.

The beauty is that He is not bound, nor obligated in any way yet He chose the path that cost Him so much because He valued us that much. We were not worthless things with no value but an immesurable treasure God saw fit to shed the precious blood of Jesus for.

Yet you think by demeaning and diminishing a treasure God saw so valueable you honor Him.

Are you saying we’re not to Glorify God?...by the way,this post is confused,it’s written all over it....” confusion”...no offence.

 

[jackrosie]

Did God need to have His righteousness increased?

Did God need to have His glory increased?

Did God need to increase His worthiness?

If not for us, then who did Christ die for?

Answer the original questions please..do you believe that?

I never asked these questions .

 

[posthuman]

Now you're just grasping at straws. The oath of innocence Job gives makes it so only God can bring a charge against him precisely because Job turns it around and says if God has something against me let Him bring the charge. Which is why Elihu is speaking out of place, because only God can bring a charge and by speaking Elihu is continuing the charge against Job putting himself in God's place.

God completely ignores any and all context of 'trial' and 'defense' and 'accusation' by His very person implicitly declaring any such pretense to be wicked.
Elihu presages the very same thing by declaring it explicitly ((37:19-20))

restating God's own dismissal of the very idea of the legitimacy of any accusation against Him or account being demanded of Him ((Isaiah 43:13)) to which Job confesses & acquiesces ((9:12, 42:2)), Elihu attests ((36:22-23)), the prophets & wisdom bear witness ((Daniel 4:35, Psalm 115:3, 135:6, Isaiah 14:27, 45:9, Ecclesiastes 8:4)), is hardly to be characterized as 'grasping at straws'

God does not even stoop to entertain the idea of there being any sort of 'trial' going on either of Him or of Job - He silences & humbles Job - the very things Elihu tries to persuade the four of them of, for the very same reason: His sovereignty - and actually characterizes Job's ordeal as having to do with salvation ((40:8-14))

and again, Job begins the discourse proclaiming his innocence ((6:24-30, 7:2-21)) -- so by your argument, all three of his friends "sin" by violating Babylonian decorum.

 

[Blue_Of_Lake]

How can I take what you mean out of context?

And that's exactly what I'm talking about, because the post you quoted is a partial presentation of the gospel, ...

that is the Milk of the gospel. but what if somone was called to God, brought to the Truth some other way?

what if even not all are being led the same by God (Spirit), and are not all brought by the same Milk or are not on Milk when called to God but happen to be on Herbs or Meat?

God knows each of us and where we are at -- spiritually speaking and we are all different and from different backgrounds, knowledge, and beliefs. God knows this, He knows Everything. He is leading us each as He wants to maybe (those who believe in God).

 

[dcontroversal]

Speak all you want, what you preach is not in the scripture... no one is saved apart from hearing the Gospel and exercising individual faith.
And no that faith is not supernatural there are no adjectives like that in front of the word in scripture.
Faith is faith ....and it is the object of our faith that saves >> Christ Jesus. ...and this glorifies God.

Exactly.....key phrase--> the OBJECT OF OUR FAITH

 

[dcontroversal]

This is a repugnant statement and it received a like......but let me ask this....... did Jesus die for them?

And you have worth based on what?

This statement is enough to make me leave CC and it should surely be reported as out and out heresy.

Amen.....

For God so loved the world contradicts his purely blasphemous statement!

 

[dcontroversal]

And this is the fruit of their doctrine.



People are reported for defending God basically....but this isn't a problem.

I know.......going down the tubes for sure!

 

[Magenta]

... God loves the unsaved. There is no question about that. And the parables of Jesus amplify this principle. But let us understand that the TYPE of love of God extends to the unsaved is ONLY pity and mercy. On wretched vessels that have no worth whatsoever. Unfortunately for the unbeliever Gods love does have a limit and that limit is met eventually.

I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak,
but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice. Ezekiel 34:16

Luke 15:1-7 Now all the tax collectors and sinners were gathering around to listen to Jesus. So the Pharisees and scribes began to grumble: “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.”

Then Jesus told them this parable: “What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the pasture and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders, comes home, and calls together his friends and neighbors to tell them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my lost sheep!' In the same way, I tell you that there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous ones who do not need to repent."

As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one." Romans 3:10

 

[dcontroversal]

I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak,
but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice. Ezekiel 34:16

Luke 15:1-7 Now all the tax collectors and sinners were gathering around to listen to Jesus. So the Pharisees and scribes began to grumble: “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.”

Then Jesus told them this parable: “What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the pasture and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders, comes home, and calls together his friends and neighbors to tell them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my lost sheep!' In the same way, I tell you that there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous ones who do not need to repent."

As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one." Romans 3:10

And yet they will skew....

Whosever
World
Love
Elect

etc......while saying.....

cv5 said:
But let us understand that the TYPE of love of God extends to the unsaved is ONLY pity and mercy. On wretched vessels that have no worth whatsoever

 

[Magenta]

And yet they will skew....

Whosever
World
Love
Elect

etc......while saying.....

cv5 said:
But let us understand that the TYPE of love of God extends to the unsaved is ONLY pity and mercy. On wretched vessels that have no worth whatsoever

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Ok,I take on board what you say.....but I am aloud to doubt who they are.

They have accused me of not being saved.....and accusing me of false dogma.

You are on the side of Christ. Most of the population in Jesus's day accused his doctrine as being false.

 

[cv5]

I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak,
but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice. Ezekiel 34:16

Luke 15:1-7 Now all the tax collectors and sinners were gathering around to listen to Jesus. So the Pharisees and scribes began to grumble: “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.”

Then Jesus told them this parable: “What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the pasture and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders, comes home, and calls together his friends and neighbors to tell them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my lost sheep!' In the same way, I tell you that there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous ones who do not need to repent."

As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one." Romans 3:10

Amen. Pity and mercy. Gathering them NOT because of THEIR righteousness or works. But because if His righteousness and love and pity.

The very concept of redemption is predicated upon the urgent need to restore that which has been spiritually ruined, in order to forestall the devastating JUDGEMENT that is inevitable. This judgment CANNOT be meted upon the righteous. ONLY upon the unrighteous.

People are not cast into hell because God values their righteousness or because of merit or because they are worthy in His eyes. Quite the contrary.

 

[Bbrdrd]

God completely ignores any and all context of 'trial' and 'defense' and 'accusation' by His very person implicitly declaring any such pretense to be wicked.
Elihu presages the very same thing by declaring it explicitly ((37:19-20))

restating God's own dismissal of the very idea of the legitimacy of any accusation against Him or account being demanded of Him ((Isaiah 43:13)) to which Job confesses & acquiesces ((9:12, 42:2)), Elihu attests ((36:22-23)), the prophets & wisdom bear witness ((Daniel 4:35, Psalm 115:3, 135:6, Isaiah 14:27, 45:9, Ecclesiastes 8:4)), is hardly to be characterized as 'grasping at straws'

God does not even stoop to entertain the idea of there being any sort of 'trial' going on either of Him or of Job - He silences & humbles Job - the very things Elihu tries to persuade the four of them of, for the very same reason: His sovereignty - and actually characterizes Job's ordeal as having to do with salvation ((40:8-14))

and again, Job begins the discourse proclaiming his innocence ((6:24-30, 7:2-21)) -- so by your argument, all three of his friends "sin" by violating Babylonian decorum.

The only part of this I'll address is the last part, because it's the only point you attempt to interact with what I have stated substantially and shows you still do not grasp the argument, especially egregious is you begging the question by forwarding Elihu's claim as substantive on the matter when the very question at hand is what to make of Elihu's speech.

You still do not seem to understand the structural argument I have made in that it is not the mere profession of innocence but the forensic declaration of innocence that places Elihu as an interloper. Instead of actually addressing the substance of my argument, you have instead presented a strawman either because you do not fully grasp the oath of innocence concept so you equate a simple declaration of innocence or you are purposely presenting a fallacy.

And the oath of innocence is not a charge against God, Job's charges against God came in his defenses against his friends. In the oath of innocence Job is merely telling his friends that he swears he is innocent, the exact same verdict God gives before any of the arguments unfold, and that unless God accuses him directly he will answer men no further. The friends did the proper thing and dropped their accusations, leaving Job to God. And then there's young Elihu, perfect in knowledge, full of anger, and potentially drunk(a charge I won't explain as you still have not grasped the basics of the argument).

 

[cv5]

Amen. Pity and mercy. Gathering them NOT because of THEIR righteousness or works. But because if His righteousness and love and pity.

The very concept of redemption is predicated upon the urgent need to restore that which has been spiritually ruined, in order to forestall the devastating JUDGEMENT that is inevitable. This judgment CANNOT be meted upon the righteous. ONLY upon the unrighteous.

People are not cast into hell because God values their righteousness or because of merit or because they are worthy in His eyes. Quite the contrary.

Another couple of thoughts:
1) We are not being redeemed to get more of what we already have. We are getting that of which we have nothing whatsoever.

2) Jesus is seeking sheep that have simply lost their way in terms of direction. He is seeking sheep who are spiriually lost to eternal judgement.

3) Redemption provides and prevents. Provides restoration to the position that has been lost. And thereby prevents inevitable judgement to eternal hell.

This business that lost sinners are being redeemed due to some kind of INTRINSIC WORTH is unscriptural nonsense.