Calvinism and Context?

[posthuman]

In steps Elihu who declares that he is speaking for God and holds up God's majesty and Job's lowliness as grounds for God not answering Job and Elihu accuses Job of sinning.

interesting



the other 3 are told to make a sacrifice because they have been wrong.
Elihu is not told this.

Job doesn't answer Elihu.
Job doesn't answer God - he claps his hand over his mouth.

Job's 3 friends accuse Job of some sin they presume he's committed before his affliction. no evidence.
Elihu says Job has sinned after his trouble, in the way that Job replies to God. Elihu cites Job's own testimony as evidence.

Job doesn't answer Elihu.
Elihu demands an answer, but Job never gives him one -
instead God speaks, demanding a string of answers from Job, and Job answers none of them.
God doesn't answer Job's questions - He never tells Job 'why' - God displays His majesty and questions Job about where was he when God did all these things? and Job claps his hand over his mouth, and cannot answer.
Job doesn't answer God.

 

[jackrosie]

Not confused at all, it is only the one who perseveres until the end who is saved.



How do “you” do that?

 

[posthuman]

In steps Elihu who declares that he is speaking for God and holds up God's majesty and Job's lowliness as grounds for God not answering Job and Elihu accuses Job of sinning.

actually Elihu declares that he is speaking for Job before God, like a mediator, intervening, one made just like Job, out of clay, who seeks to Job's good, to justify Job.

Truly I am as your spokesman before God;​

I also have been formed out of clay.
(Job 33:6)
​

Give ear, Job, listen to me;​

hold your peace, and I will speak.​

If you have anything to say, answer me;​

speak, for I desire to justify you.
(Job 33:31-32)​

 

[cv5]

actually Elihu declares that he is speaking for Job before God, like a mediator, intervening, one made just like Job, out of clay, who seeks to Job's good, to justify Job.

Truly I am as your spokesman before God;​

I also have been formed out of clay. ​

(Job 33:6)​

​

Give ear, Job, listen to me;​

hold your peace, and I will speak.​

If you have anything to say, answer me;​

speak, for I desire to justify you. ​

(Job 33:31-32)​

Very interesting indeed. Evidently God does not admonish Job's lawyer at the conclusion of the case. I suppose he was working well within the rules of the court! And as far as I can tell he was working pro bono publico.

 

[cv5]

Hhhmmm. The term "choose" is used only one time in the KJV, three times in the NKJV, and 10 times in the ESV.
And look at how the term is applied.
Telling and interesting.

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicks...cksearch=choose&begin=47&end=73&resultspp=250

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicks...cksearch=choose&begin=47&end=73&resultspp=250

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicks...cksearch=choose&begin=47&end=73&resultspp=250

 

[cv5]

Here is Jesus' advice about choosing.......interesting.

John 7:17
If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.

 

[posthuman]

Very interesting indeed. Evidently God does not admonish Job's lawyer at the conclusion of the case. I suppose he was working well within the rules of the court! And as far as I can tell he was working pro bono publico.

it really is interesting --

Elihu tells Job, if you have an answer for me, tell me, if not hold your tongue and i will teach you wisdom. ((33:31-33))
God essentially tells Job the same thing - answer Me; I will teach you wisdom.
righteous Job does not have an answer for either of them ((40:1-5)) - is he taught wisdom? 'fear of the LORD'
Elihu says Job speaks without knowledge - God says the same thing ((35:16, 38:2))
Elihu says look at how high above you God is, look at all the things He has done - God says the same thing.

between Elihu & God, Job knows it is time to shut up in humility ((42:1-6))

God tells Eliphaz, Bildad & Zophar they've been wrong, and to make atonement ((42:7-9))
Elihu isn't mentioned. it's not said anywhere i can find that Elihu wasn't right.

yes @Bbrdrd Elihu does say Job has not been righteous --

"Surely you have spoken in my hearing,​

and I have heard the sound of your words, saying,​

‘I am pure, without transgression;​

I am innocent, and there is no iniquity in me.​

Yet He finds occasions against me,​

He counts me as His enemy;​

He puts my feet in the stocks,​

He watches all my paths.’​

Look, in this you are not righteous.​

I will answer you,​

for God is greater than man.​

Why do you contend with Him?​

For He does not give an accounting of any of His words."​

(Job 33:8-13)​

​

he says Job's unrighteousness is his demanding an account from God, in justifying himself. Elihu justifies God -
and does God give Job an account?
or does God reply as Elihu does, saying, God is greater than man, who are you to contend with Him?
doesn't Paul say this too, in Romans 9:20?

friend perhaps to say @cv5 is like Elihu is a greater compliment to him than you meant to give

 

[ForestGreenCook]

So the other peeps were created but never given the opportunity to receive God’s grace, hence they were created for wrath and destruction?

No God did not create them for destruction, because God gave them a free will to choose out their changes in life, They choose not to seek God, and instead choose destruction, Psalms 53:2-3. You, fasly, accuse people of limiting God, but you are the one that is limiting God, by saying that God wants to eternally save all mankind, but he can't, because some of mankind "stay his hand" (do not accept him). That theory will not harmonize with Dan 4:35, And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can "stay his hand", or say unto him, What doest thou?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

It seems to me you are being evasive, I am speaking about the non-elect and how are they held accountable for a choice they did not have?

They had a choice, and they choose not to seek God, Psalms 53:2-3.

 

[cv5]

They had a choice, and they choose not to seek God, Psalms 53:2-3.

Those who do not seek God are blaming Him right now. And they shall continue to blame Him when they are in hell for eternity.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Your post reminds me of a post I made quite awhile ago (where there's another verse using this "REJECT [G114]" word):

[quoting old post]


Luke 7:29-30 - "29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected [G114] the counsel [G1012 - boulēn] of God against [as to / unto] themselves, being not baptized [having not been baptized] of him."

--G1012 - boulēn - used also in Ephesians 1:11, the verse Calvinists use to say "no one can reject/resist" THIS, God's decreed [determined-plan] will [G1012]... yet Luke 7:30 clearly says the Pharisees and lawyers "rejected the boulēn G1012 of God..." (which, for that time then in existence, the decreed-will of God was: "the baptism of John").

The point being, they did indeed "reject the boulēn G1012 of God". Something that Calvinists say is impossible.


From Bible Hub:

Definition: counsel, deliberate wisdom, decree.

HELPS Word-studies

1012 boulḗ – properly, a resolved plan, used particularly of the immutable aspect of God's plan – purposefully arranging all physical circumstances, which guarantees every scene of life works to His eternal purpose.

This level of God's plan (1012 /boulḗ) demonstrates He is the Lord of history, i.e. always in charge!

[1012 (boulḗ) is more than God's immutable plan of physical circumstances. It always also includes the Lord's purpose in them – and hence arranging all the physical scenes of history before creation (Ps 139:16; Jn 1:3).]


[and... quoting]

HELPS Word-studies

Cognate: 1014 boúlomai – to plan with full resolve (determination). See 1012 (boulē).

1014 /boúlomai ("resolutely plan") is a strong term that underlines the predetermined (and determined) intention driving the planning (wishing, resolving). In contrast, 2309 (thélō) focuses on the desire ("wishfulness") behind making an offer (cf. TDNT, 1, 629).

[While God's "thelō-offers" can be rejected (see 2309 /thélō), His 1014 /boúlomai ("planning") always works out His purpose, especially in conjunction with presetting the physical scenes of history.]

[end quoting from BibleHub]


They clearly "rejected the boulēn G1012 of God," according to that text.

One might think to answer, well they are just doing what comes naturally (to natural man), but that is to miss the point. The point is, Calvinists say that "no one can reject/resist His 'boule / boulen [G1012]' will (that is to say, His 'decreed' will)." But Luke 7:30 says these clearly did so.

And I agree with those saying that "Calvinism" and "Arminianism" are NOT the only options.

[end quoting old post]

I am not sure, exactly, what John Calvin believed, because I have never read his writings, but if he believes that God predestines mankind's choices in the way mankind wants to live his life as he sojourns here on earth, then, I disagree with him, but I do believe that mankind does not have a choice in his eternal salvation, because the harmony of the scriptures teach otherwise. That choice is made be God's sovereign grace, without the help of mankind.

 

[pottersclay]

Speaking of Job, he and his friends went through many many chapters making assumptions about the character of God, presuming to know His will and so on and so forth.

Of course all of this didn't amount to a hill of beans. God did not agree with any of them and He certainly did not offer any explanations or excuses. God's response was in part was I know what I'm doing......don't even bother asking.

You may or may not get the connection but that's one of the reasons I tend toward the
election-foreordination-predestination line of thinking.

I look at job in a different way. As a man without a advocate. Job even said he has none to plead his case.
Our advocate was bruised for our iniquities, pierced for our transgression, by his stripes we are healed.
Job just before God still in need of a savior. Satan still the accuser of the brethren.
All have sinned there is no righteous no not one.
Satan holds all of us as ransom, he has defiled that which was made good. Only by blood can it be redeemed. Not selection.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Those who do not seek God are blaming Him right now. And they shall continue to blame Him when they are in hell for eternity.

God, by his foreknowledge, Psalms 53:2-3, saw that none would seek him, no, not one. Out of those that would not seek him, is the group that he choose a portion off before the foundation of the world and predestined them to be adopted as his children by Jesus Christ. The children did not choose God, but he choose them. Jesus paid the adoption price on the cross for those that God choose, and will complete the adoption process, when he comes back at the last day to gather his elect, and takes them home. We use this same adoption process in our society today.

 

[cv5]

God, by his foreknowledge, Psalms 53:2-3, saw that none would seek him, no, not one. Out of those that would not seek him, is the group that he choose a portion off before the foundation of the world and predestined them to be adopted as his children by Jesus Christ. The children did not choose God, but he choose them. Jesus paid the adoption price on the cross for those that God choose, and will complete the adoption process, when he comes back at the last day to gather his elect, and takes them home. We use this same adoption process in our society today.

Yes, our worldly adoption principle is a good metaphor for election. I am glad you brought it up.

It is the parents to choose the baby, it is never the baby that chooses the parents.
A helpless baby who does not see cannot hear does not perceive cannot possibly make any choices on its behalf. And in both cases the parents are not compelled in any way to do anything at all.

Earthly parents may choose a baby for reasons other than mercy and pity, yes. But the Bible is clear that we were chosen ONLY because of mercy and pity (as was the nation Israel). Now that we understand our adoption we are to order our lives worthily, as good sons who love their Father and demonstrate it in their lives.

On a similar note, God loves the unsaved. There is no question about that. And the parables of Jesus amplify this principle. But let us understand that the TYPE of love of God extends to the unsaved is ONLY pity and mercy. On wretched vessels that have no worth whatsoever. Unfortunately for the unbeliever Gods love does have a limit and that limit is met eventually.

Contrarily, Gods love for His family members is on a different level. It is infinite, it is the love of a Father toward His sons, it will never end.

 

[jackrosie]

Yes, our worldly adoption principle is a good metaphor for election. I am glad you brought it up.

It is the parents to choose the baby, it is never the baby that chooses the parents.
A helpless baby who does not see cannot hear does not perceive cannot possibly make any choices on its behalf. And in both cases the parents are not compelled in any way to do anything at all.

Earthly parents may choose a baby for reasons other than mercy and pity, yes. But the Bible is clear that we were chosen ONLY because of mercy and pity (as was the nation Israel). Now that we understand our adoption we are to order our lives worthily, as good sons who love their Father and demonstrate it in their lives.

On a similar note, God loves the unsaved. There is no question about that. And the parables of Jesus amplify this principle. But let us understand that the TYPE of love of God extends to the unsaved is ONLY pity and mercy. On wretched vessels that have no worth whatsoever. Unfortunately for the unbeliever Gods love does have a limit and that limit is met eventually.

Contrarily, Gods love for His family members is on a different level. It is infinite, it is the love of a Father toward His sons, it will never end.

God’s Love for His family of Children,can’t even be described,it’s a Love so powerful,that love drew us to Him,God drew us to him,no one can come to the Son unless the Father draws them.....yet that is biblical,some just don’t understand it.and say we preach false dogma and that we shouldn’t be allowed on this site.....they seem to kick and scream at the truth of God’s word......WHY?

 

[jackrosie]

Like the rest, we were by nature objects [children] of wrath. Ephesians 2:3

Yet to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God- John 1:12

No one can come to the Son only through the Father....He chooses and draws his children.

He knew us before we were born.

 

[jackrosie]

The Lord has willed it. Scripture says that it is not the Lord's will that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2nd Peter 3:

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:4-6

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

No one can come to Jesus only through the Father,who chooses and draws his children,he brings us to a place of believing,we cannot bring ourselves,I played no part of being saved,

My saving was completely unexpected,no choice,drawn by my Father In Heaven,adopted into his family of children.an Honour and Privilege.

 

[jackrosie]

can Someone please explain.

It is only the one who perseveres until the end who is saved?

How do you do that?......thank you.

 

[Duskey]

No God did not create them for destruction, because God gave them a free will to choose out their changes in life, They choose not to seek God, and instead choose destruction, Psalms 53:2-3. You, fasly, accuse people of limiting God, but you are the one that is limiting God, by saying that God wants to eternally save all mankind, but he can't, because some of mankind "stay his hand" (do not accept him). That theory will not harmonize with Dan 4:35, And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can "stay his hand", or say unto him, What doest thou?

You’re literally the one saying God can’t do everything yet you state I’m limiting God. I’m not limiting God or His saving grace whatsoever. You couldn’t be more incorrect regarding my heart as it pertains to God.

As far as Daniel 4:35, start living on this side of the cross and Resurrection. For God so loved the world that He affords everyone the opportunity to receive His grace. People simply need to place their faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[jackrosie]

You’re literally the one saying God can’t do everything yet you state I’m limiting God. I’m not limiting God or His saving grace whatsoever. You couldn’t be more incorrect regarding my heart as it pertains to God.

As far as Daniel 4:35, start living on this side of the cross and Resurrection. For God so loved the world that He affords everyone the opportunity to receive His grace. People simply need to place their faith in Jesus Christ.

Can you explain....No one can come to the Son unless the Father draws them?

Did the Father draw you?....

Father does the drawing..correct?..how does your heart pertain to God?