Is Catholicism the Oldest Christian Faith?
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Finally a sane argument. Thank you for your response. What I mean is the introduction of ideas like a priest instead of a Presbyter. Recall there are no NT priests. The idea arises a couple of centuries later. When exactly, difficult to say. Or when Presbyters and Episcopoi became separate offices. They are used interchangeably in the NT but by the time of Ignatius of Antioch they are separate in the early 2nd century. Depending on the version of IofA you are reading. There is a later Latin recession that expands greatly in what we think was the original. Yet we also have 1st Clement which seems to indicate there was a plurality of Presbyters not a monarchical episcopate in Rome. That seems to occur later. That is what I mean. I can offer more evidence when I get back home and reference my library. The point is that there isn’t a date we can point to. Only when changes appear in the historical record.
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this isn an error the "catholic church is not the original " Church". Jesus did not call us to a denomination. The Gospel Came first and IS the Supreme Message of the church The death, burial , and Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. IT did not come first. Paul preached Jesus and Him crucified and rose again from the Dead. HE was a witness and spoke what the Holy Spirit gave HIM and the Old Testament Your RCC agenda did not save us , Jesus did. Take that RCC foolishness and go to another RCC site.
Thank you.
Thank you.
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T
Catholics are Christians because they believe in the Apostles' Creed. They have some other practices but it doesn't negate from the fact they are Christians. Most of the Supreme Court is Catholic, and Trump is planning to nominate another.
https://time.com/4040450/pope-francis-us-visit-catholic-lawmakers/
https://time.com/4040450/pope-francis-us-visit-catholic-lawmakers/
I find the question of whether Catholics are Christian to be more complex than that. It really boils down to a couple of key issues that can go either way as far as Catholic belief. Certainly their catechisms and such can be read to be in agreement with the essentials of Christianity, but there are also teachers who cross the line into pagan practices.
An example would be Catholic soteriology. The catechisms actually fall within Biblical revelation as far as wholly attributing the effective portion of salvation to Christ and the cross. Yet the way they do this can lead to misconceptions among both clergy and laity alike towards the economy of salvation. Instead of recognizing the essential truth of salvation by grace through faith, many clergy teach that it is the sacraments that are efficacious for salvation in themselves. This is not in accord with central catechisms, but it is within orthodox Catholic teachings as it gets presented without causing an uproar.
Of course the most problematic aspect of Catholicism is the veneration of Mary, particularly in treating her as an intercessor. The first part is possibly within tolerance, but the second absolutely is not. While there is much lip service done to distance themselves from Mary worship the reality is that their veneration of Mary is often taken beyond simply honoring a great human to outright worship among the laity. So the question here that is important is which defines Catholicism, the catechisms or what is happening in practice, as the former is crafted in such a way to skirt the line and the latter often goes well over.
Ultimately, whether Catholics are Christians does not present itself as an easy question to answer because they have adopted many non-Christian practices some of which go directly against things that are generally held as essential.
An example would be Catholic soteriology. The catechisms actually fall within Biblical revelation as far as wholly attributing the effective portion of salvation to Christ and the cross. Yet the way they do this can lead to misconceptions among both clergy and laity alike towards the economy of salvation. Instead of recognizing the essential truth of salvation by grace through faith, many clergy teach that it is the sacraments that are efficacious for salvation in themselves. This is not in accord with central catechisms, but it is within orthodox Catholic teachings as it gets presented without causing an uproar.
Of course the most problematic aspect of Catholicism is the veneration of Mary, particularly in treating her as an intercessor. The first part is possibly within tolerance, but the second absolutely is not. While there is much lip service done to distance themselves from Mary worship the reality is that their veneration of Mary is often taken beyond simply honoring a great human to outright worship among the laity. So the question here that is important is which defines Catholicism, the catechisms or what is happening in practice, as the former is crafted in such a way to skirt the line and the latter often goes well over.
Ultimately, whether Catholics are Christians does not present itself as an easy question to answer because they have adopted many non-Christian practices some of which go directly against things that are generally held as essential.
It was a dead giveaway when Constatine invited 1800 bishops to the council of Nicaea, all expenses paid?
Only 318 showed up, that tells you where the Roman Catholic State Church was in 325AD
The Land of Vatican City was donated to this State Church by Constatine, he built the original St. Peters Basilica
The true Christian lineage existed outside of Roman Catholicism's grip, and they were heavily persecuted for it.
Only 318 showed up, that tells you where the Roman Catholic State Church was in 325AD
The Land of Vatican City was donated to this State Church by Constatine, he built the original St. Peters Basilica
The true Christian lineage existed outside of Roman Catholicism's grip, and they were heavily persecuted for it.
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no, I asked you first.
I want to know why the Father singled out Peter to reveal His Son to according to you. Why Jesus changed Simon's name to Peter and gave Peter authority before the others. Why Jesus told only Peter to feed His flock. These are things that happened only to Peter. What do you believe those things happened to Peter for?
I want to know why the Father singled out Peter to reveal His Son to according to you. Why Jesus changed Simon's name to Peter and gave Peter authority before the others. Why Jesus told only Peter to feed His flock. These are things that happened only to Peter. What do you believe those things happened to Peter for?
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and yet the letter it self is teaching so is that Paul contradicting himself or humans misunderstanding.
Obviusly we all need teaching or we would not have Epistles written to us to explain how to live.
But each to their own beleif. Enough scriptures to back every doctrine ever created.
But i tend to belevie that Paul and the other Apostles knew we needed teaching until we are no longer here
Especially when Paul writes in Eph 4:11 onwards about the need for Apostles. Prophets, Evangelists and Pastors , Teachers , UNTIL we are made Perfect in One ness. We not there yet so we still need teachign
Obviusly we all need teaching or we would not have Epistles written to us to explain how to live.
But each to their own beleif. Enough scriptures to back every doctrine ever created.
But i tend to belevie that Paul and the other Apostles knew we needed teaching until we are no longer here
Especially when Paul writes in Eph 4:11 onwards about the need for Apostles. Prophets, Evangelists and Pastors , Teachers , UNTIL we are made Perfect in One ness. We not there yet so we still need teachign
In my claim I have the higher number in attendance at 318
Wikipedia: First Council Of Nicaea
Constantine had invited all 1,800 bishops of the Christian church within the Roman Empire (about 1,000 in the east and 800 in the west), but a smaller and unknown number attended. Eusebius of Caesarea counted more than 250,[22] Athanasius of Alexandria counted 318,[11] and Eustathius of Antioch estimated "about 270"[23] (all three were present at the Council). Later, Socrates Scholasticus recorded more than 300,[24] and Evagrius,[25] Hilary of Poitiers,[26] Jerome,[27] Dionysius Exiguus,[28] and Rufinus[29] recorded 318. This number 318 is preserved in the liturgies of the Eastern Orthodox Church[30] and the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria.[citation needed]
Delegates came from every region of the Roman Empire, including Britain, and from the Christian churches extant within the Sassanid Empire.[31] The participating bishops were given free travel to and from their episcopal sees to the Council, as well as lodging.
Wikipedia: Constatine The Great
His most famous building projects include the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and Old Saint Peter's Basilica. In constructing the Old Saint Peter's Basilica, Constantine went to great lengths to erect the basilica on top of St. Peter's resting place, so much so that it even affected the design of the basilica, including the challenge of erecting it on the hill where St. Peter rested, making its complete construction time over 30 years from the date Constantine ordered it to be built.
The reign of Constantine established a precedent for the emperor to have great influence and authority in the early Christian councils, most notably the dispute over Arianism. Constantine disliked the risks to societal stability that religious disputes and controversies brought with them, preferring to establish an orthodoxy.[229] His influence over the Church councils was to enforce doctrine, root out heresy, and uphold ecclesiastical unity; the Church's role was to determine proper worship, doctrines, and dogma.[230]
Wikipedia: First Council Of Nicaea
Constantine had invited all 1,800 bishops of the Christian church within the Roman Empire (about 1,000 in the east and 800 in the west), but a smaller and unknown number attended. Eusebius of Caesarea counted more than 250,[22] Athanasius of Alexandria counted 318,[11] and Eustathius of Antioch estimated "about 270"[23] (all three were present at the Council). Later, Socrates Scholasticus recorded more than 300,[24] and Evagrius,[25] Hilary of Poitiers,[26] Jerome,[27] Dionysius Exiguus,[28] and Rufinus[29] recorded 318. This number 318 is preserved in the liturgies of the Eastern Orthodox Church[30] and the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria.[citation needed]
Delegates came from every region of the Roman Empire, including Britain, and from the Christian churches extant within the Sassanid Empire.[31] The participating bishops were given free travel to and from their episcopal sees to the Council, as well as lodging.
Wikipedia: Constatine The Great
His most famous building projects include the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and Old Saint Peter's Basilica. In constructing the Old Saint Peter's Basilica, Constantine went to great lengths to erect the basilica on top of St. Peter's resting place, so much so that it even affected the design of the basilica, including the challenge of erecting it on the hill where St. Peter rested, making its complete construction time over 30 years from the date Constantine ordered it to be built.
The reign of Constantine established a precedent for the emperor to have great influence and authority in the early Christian councils, most notably the dispute over Arianism. Constantine disliked the risks to societal stability that religious disputes and controversies brought with them, preferring to establish an orthodoxy.[229] His influence over the Church councils was to enforce doctrine, root out heresy, and uphold ecclesiastical unity; the Church's role was to determine proper worship, doctrines, and dogma.[230]
The bit I was objecting to is the expenses paid on the invitation, I've never seen such a claim and it doesn't seem likely. Inviting all the bishops shows Constantine had exactly the intent he stated with the council, which is to get a unified statement on the Arian controversy. The number that showed up is because of the danger and expense of travelling, but the diversity from which they came speaks to the universal voice of the church in the matter.
Though the more interesting question you left unanswered.
Constantine certainly reshaped the church and is one marker along the way to the modern state, but the boogeyman that critics make him is often well beyond the influence he actually did have.
Though the more interesting question you left unanswered.
Constantine certainly reshaped the church and is one marker along the way to the modern state, but the boogeyman that critics make him is often well beyond the influence he actually did have.