E
No 'But '
- Thread starter throughfaith
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
E
EleventhHour
Guest
Agree ... how many works are needed to prove salvation?
One, two?
The thief on the cross had none.
I believe good works will naturally flow out from one that is saved, like fruit of the spirit.
Romans on is for Spirit filled believers, the "church" today relegates Spirit filled believers to a "fringe" when that is the true "eklesia", fulfilling His plan. The "fruit of the Spirit" follows the believer, being the Lords hands and feet and ever becoming conformed to the image of the Son.
blessings
blessings
So you believe after save a man will continue what he did before ? Nomrepent?
If he was thief will continue to steal after repent?
No, you've mixed up the order.
Jesus' father was a carpenter and His disciples were fishermen. Those two professions were looked down on in the Jewish world because they couldn't follow the law. Carpenters had to touch dead bodies regularly because they doubled as undertakers and fishermen regularly came in contact with unclean animals.
Yet that's who Jesus selected, not the scrupulous law keepers.
A faithful Israelite would have kept the law not because they were obligated to, but because they knew the law pleased God. Yet they would not have kept it as you suggest, by obligation as a work.
Israel failed in keeping the law because they mistook it for a work and did not keep it by faith, and the ones who were successful with the law wouldn't necessarily have been seen as keeping it.
Another example is Jesus highlighting David's breaking of the law in Luke 6. There are two things God held against David as sin, his numbering of Israel and the incident with Bathsheba and Uriah. Yet there are instances where David did things that were unlawful.
I already said there was a system of animal sacrifices for those who broke the law in the OT. God knew man could not keep the law perfectly, but again, it does not mean Jews don't have to try to keep the law in the OT.
Have you realized that the word faith rarely appears in the OT, and sometimes appear with a negative connotation? There is a reason for that.
What you have entirely missed is that for the faithful Israelite the law was a joy, yet Pharisees and others turned it into a burden.
I'm rather amiss as to what you're saying with the second point...do you think what pleases God changed from the OT to the NT? Like with the OT He was no fan of faith, but after getting nailed to the cross He decided faith wasn't so bad?
My point was simple, you show faith by obeying what God commands you to do.
When God commanded Israel to keep the Law of Moses, the only way to show faith in God was to obey him and keep it. God also provided a system of sacrifices whenever Israel fail in their law keeping.
There is no need to distinguish between "keep the law in faith vs keep the law in non-faith", the word faith almost never appear in the KJV OT and, if it did, it never appeared for that purpose, as what I think you are trying to do here.
As Paul said, there is probably a very simple reason, "The Law is not of faith".
Yet Jesus Himself stated "if only you had known the meaning of 'I desire mercy not sacrifice' you would not have condemned the innocent."
There absolutely is a need to distinguish between keeping the law in faith and keeping it according to works, otherwise Paul wouldn't have stated that Israel's disobedience and the gentile's acceptance was because the gentiles who had no law showed faith while the jews lacked it.
I already said that Israel's disobedience, and their eventual fall, is because they fail to accept Jesus as their Messiah, and be water baptized, as their law commanded them to, in Acts 3:22-23, it stated clearly
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
You are trying to overly complicate the matter by trying to distinguish between "keeping the law in faith and keeping it according to works". You heard of the term "Occam razor" right?
The Law directed them to Jesus as their promised Messiah and they rejected him, that is not keeping the Law.
So Paul's wrong in Romans 9:30-33 when he says the Israelites were hardened because they kept the law as work? Jesus was wrong about them condemning the innocent because they didn't understand what "I desire mercy not sacrifice" means?
There's no complication other than people trying to divide up God's plan of salvation into discrete sections. It is one and the same and has always been by faith.
They wanted to keep the law of Moses, at least the watered down version taught to them by their leaders, but they refuse to accept that Jesus is that prophet that their leader Moses was talking about.
You quoted correctly in Romans 9:30-33, they needed to believe that Jesus was that prophet.
The Jews always required a sign to believe (1 Cor 1:22), and Jesus made it so easy for them by giving them so many signs and wonders, as Peter would remind them in Acts 2:22, yet the nation crucified and put him on the cross.
Christ became a stumbling stone for them.
but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. (Rom 9:31-32)
Faith has always been at the center of God's salvation plan. The law was not given to be blindly followed and used to bludgeon and ostracize as it was used by those in power. It was given so that Israel would display God's character in faith, but instead they allowed sin to take hold of it and pursued it faithlessly. Instead of being the beacon to the living God that wants to make orphans into sons and daughters Israel became a nation of supremacists looking down at all who were not in their ranks and mercilessly pecking at each other.
Okay, so long as you agree that the Law point them to Christ, they refused to believe in him, and thus they broke the Law, we are in agreement here.
If you want to say that is "following the Law out of faith", I can give you that.
