Is Catholicism the Oldest Christian Faith?
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That's where the rubber meets the road isn't it.
The prerequisite thing to know is that the Word is primarily expressed by word of mouth. It is spoken. That expression is the eternal Word. It is a promise of Christ to His Church through the gift of the Holy Spirit to be protected from error until He returns. To be guided to All Truth is to be protected from error. So the Truth is taught by those in authority among the community that surrounds Christ since the beginning. The written Word is an authoritative means of validation for authentic development of faith.
The prerequisite thing to know is that the Word is primarily expressed by word of mouth. It is spoken. That expression is the eternal Word. It is a promise of Christ to His Church through the gift of the Holy Spirit to be protected from error until He returns. To be guided to All Truth is to be protected from error. So the Truth is taught by those in authority among the community that surrounds Christ since the beginning. The written Word is an authoritative means of validation for authentic development of faith.
You have reached the heart of scripture understanding. We need to search each doctrine to find out when it was initiated and why. There are many changes in the church, when the original church wrote about their church it was a very different church from our church today. Today there is little difference between people who walk in the flesh and people who belong to the Lord as we accept the way the flesh live. That was not true of the first church. Their entertainment was different, even their clothes were different. They would gladly die for their faith because the godly life was more important to them than the fleshly life.
The KoC oath is a fraud too. You are correct in that there has been much dishonesty from the RCC side. Just read documents like the donation of Constantine or the Decretals. They formed the basis of medieval RCC claim on authority. Then there is the forged early church father’s quotes from the 18th and 19th century. What drew me away from Rome was reading the actual writings of the ECF and realizing they said at times the exact opposite of what Rome was positing. Remember the remedy to falsehood is truth, not another falsehood. Rome teaches error in her official documents that is far more damning then anything that Chiniquy or Hislop could imagine. Remember truth as revealed in Scripture is on our side so the nonsense that those guys published doesn’t help us. It’s a distraction.
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Of course the ECF are not on the same level as Scripture. But recall we stand on the shoulders of giants like Iraeneus, Athanasius the Great, Chrsysotom, Augustine and the like. Even early popes like Gregory the great and Clement of Rome. These Christian brother to a man would tell you to compare their teaching to Scripture. They are not legion, whatever that is supposed to mean. And in the case of Athanasius they stared down the absolute power of the Roman Empire for the sake of biblical truth. These martyrs are owed our admiration and thankfulness not our derision. They were fighting heresy that took hold of the entire known world and stood firm in the Faith.
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I think I understand. It seems most people alive today, not knowing anything different, think the fleshy world you mentioned is good.
We do need to prepare.
The end will begin to be swallowed by the beginning. Christ will crush it again,
The first Christians rejoiced when persecuted. It is God's Grace to them. An opportunity to forgive is an opportunity for Jesus to unite His suffering to theirs. Their witness is empowered as they conformed to their Lord.
We do need to prepare.
The end will begin to be swallowed by the beginning. Christ will crush it again,
The first Christians rejoiced when persecuted. It is God's Grace to them. An opportunity to forgive is an opportunity for Jesus to unite His suffering to theirs. Their witness is empowered as they conformed to their Lord.
The title of the pope was stolen from the bishop of Alexandria. No Peter as the "bishop of Rome", or "pope" because there was no such thing in the first 300+ years of the church. So, no apostolic succession.
The church did not have the rites and rituals the RCC has today. Those were added centuries after. And most mean nothing.
The RCC set up a hierarchy which the early church didn't have. Jesus is the head of the church. He has called the following:
"So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up." Eph 4:11-12
Notice how there are NO priests? Priests died out after Jesus was resurrected. He did this because he became the high priest!
"Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledgeas our apostle and high priest." Hebrews 3:1
"We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, 20 where our forerunner, Jesus, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek." Hebrews 6:19-20
There is no need for earthly priests, nor reliving the crucifixion over and over at the mass! Jesus paid the price already. We answer to Jesus, not a corrupt, bloated church like the RCC.
Then there is soteriology, or how we are saved. The RCC is terribly mistaken in the order of salvation which usurps God's authority as Saviour. This is the RCC order:
Baptized -> infant (not found even once in the Bible)
sanctification -> becoming holy
Death and purgatory -> a fictitious place where people have to stay till enough bought and paid for masses have been said to get you out. Except, no one knows when that is!
Justification -> this is when people are finally saved, after suffering the punishment for their sins.
Glorification -> ??
This is totally wrong. Here is the Protestant soteriology:
Justification by faith -> God saves us. See Romans 5:1-2 Not by works!
Sanctification -> the Holy Spirit, who has been in our hearts since we were justified, transforming us into the image of Christ. Not by works!
Romans 6:22 "But now, freed from sin and enslaved to God, you have your benefit leading to sanctification, and the end is eternal life."
2 Thess 2:13 " But we ought to thank God always for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
Glorification -> when we are made perfect. Romans 8:30 "And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."
Catholics have good charities, but is it just to gain more brownie points to make sure at the end, you go to heaven?
The RCC version of everything is by works! The Bible is clear salvation is by faith through grace. The RCC is literally wrong one every aspect of theology, except for their high Christiology.
"For it is by grace you have been saved,through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Eph 2:8-10
(Sorry if someone else has gone through. I don't have the patience to read the whole thread!)
The church did not have the rites and rituals the RCC has today. Those were added centuries after. And most mean nothing.
The RCC set up a hierarchy which the early church didn't have. Jesus is the head of the church. He has called the following:
"So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up." Eph 4:11-12
Notice how there are NO priests? Priests died out after Jesus was resurrected. He did this because he became the high priest!
"Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledgeas our apostle and high priest." Hebrews 3:1
"We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, 20 where our forerunner, Jesus, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek." Hebrews 6:19-20
There is no need for earthly priests, nor reliving the crucifixion over and over at the mass! Jesus paid the price already. We answer to Jesus, not a corrupt, bloated church like the RCC.
Then there is soteriology, or how we are saved. The RCC is terribly mistaken in the order of salvation which usurps God's authority as Saviour. This is the RCC order:
Baptized -> infant (not found even once in the Bible)
sanctification -> becoming holy
Death and purgatory -> a fictitious place where people have to stay till enough bought and paid for masses have been said to get you out. Except, no one knows when that is!
Justification -> this is when people are finally saved, after suffering the punishment for their sins.
Glorification -> ??
This is totally wrong. Here is the Protestant soteriology:
Justification by faith -> God saves us. See Romans 5:1-2 Not by works!
Sanctification -> the Holy Spirit, who has been in our hearts since we were justified, transforming us into the image of Christ. Not by works!
Romans 6:22 "But now, freed from sin and enslaved to God, you have your benefit leading to sanctification, and the end is eternal life."
2 Thess 2:13 " But we ought to thank God always for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
Glorification -> when we are made perfect. Romans 8:30 "And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."
Catholics have good charities, but is it just to gain more brownie points to make sure at the end, you go to heaven?
The RCC version of everything is by works! The Bible is clear salvation is by faith through grace. The RCC is literally wrong one every aspect of theology, except for their high Christiology.
"For it is by grace you have been saved,through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Eph 2:8-10
(Sorry if someone else has gone through. I don't have the patience to read the whole thread!)
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I don't know if you ever read the testimony from dr Alberto Rivera.
Some of what he say, happen and he say before happen.
I remember some, I heard fro San Diego pricher
1. In the '60 he talk to his church, he said Jesuit will secretly infiltrate USA by donate presidential or congress campaign and you know the sign if Jesuit have majority people in congress is the presidential inauguration will face obelisk that is vatican God.
According to this San Diego preacher. It happen in 1984,
That make me believe Alberto not lie
2. He also say Vatican want Jerusalem because the Bible say Jesus will come in mount Zion. In Jerusalem, and pope is jesus on earth that is why Vatican secretly lobby UN to ask Israel not use Jerusalem as the capital city
https://www.americamagazine.org/pol...rns-new-tension-if-us-embassy-moved-jerusalem
That make me believe the anti christ is pope
And Alberto say that oath is real
Some of what he say, happen and he say before happen.
I remember some, I heard fro San Diego pricher
1. In the '60 he talk to his church, he said Jesuit will secretly infiltrate USA by donate presidential or congress campaign and you know the sign if Jesuit have majority people in congress is the presidential inauguration will face obelisk that is vatican God.
According to this San Diego preacher. It happen in 1984,
That make me believe Alberto not lie
2. He also say Vatican want Jerusalem because the Bible say Jesus will come in mount Zion. In Jerusalem, and pope is jesus on earth that is why Vatican secretly lobby UN to ask Israel not use Jerusalem as the capital city
https://www.americamagazine.org/pol...rns-new-tension-if-us-embassy-moved-jerusalem
That make me believe the anti christ is pope
And Alberto say that oath is real
Benadam, I have nothing personally against you 
However Roman Catholicism dosent represent Christianity in word or deed.
All you have to do is study, the ground of Vatican City was given by Roman Emperor Constatine, he invited 1800 bishops to the Council of Nicaea, all expenses paid, only 318 showed up?
85% of Bishops didn't want anything to do with Constantine the pagan or his newly formed State Church.
Catholicism dosent maintain biblical Christianity, they teach of another gospel and Jesus.
Roman Catholicism is no different than Mormons, JW'S, and the rest of the cults.
In Love
However Roman Catholicism dosent represent Christianity in word or deed.
All you have to do is study, the ground of Vatican City was given by Roman Emperor Constatine, he invited 1800 bishops to the Council of Nicaea, all expenses paid, only 318 showed up?
85% of Bishops didn't want anything to do with Constantine the pagan or his newly formed State Church.
Catholicism dosent maintain biblical Christianity, they teach of another gospel and Jesus.
Roman Catholicism is no different than Mormons, JW'S, and the rest of the cults.
In Love
For Catholics- it happens after death. For Protestants and in the Bible, it happens at the beginning, when God saves us!
"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God." Romans 5:1-2
A catholic can never know if they are saved, until they have survived purgatory, a place that is never mentioned in the Bible.
"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God." Romans 5:1-2
A catholic can never know if they are saved, until they have survived purgatory, a place that is never mentioned in the Bible.
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Did you mean between the doctrine of God and the oral traditions as doctrines of men? There a can be only one teaching master.
The doctrines of God are inspired from heaven they fall as rain comes down . The doctrines of men are earthly inspired of the father of lies. The doctrine of God are found in the Bible alone. The doctrines of men as a law of men are called the laws of the fathers, kings, prince,. popes
One direction. Heaven the storeroom of Christ's faith unseen to earth seen.
Deuteronomy 32:1-3 King James Version (KJV)Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:
Called the water of the word in the new testament .The doctrines Christ washes his bride the church with.
Catholics have their own book of Law CCC as oral traditions of men inspired from earth . It takes on the higher authroity making the word of God the lesser to no effect.. While Mormons in the same way have their the book of Mormon. or Moslem have the Koran. All doctrines of must be compared to the Bible.
The Bible in its entirety alone is the final authority in matters of faith, the unseen will of God that works in the believer..
One is our Holy Father. The teaching master
The doctrines of God are inspired from heaven they fall as rain comes down . The doctrines of men are earthly inspired of the father of lies. The doctrine of God are found in the Bible alone. The doctrines of men as a law of men are called the laws of the fathers, kings, prince,. popes
One direction. Heaven the storeroom of Christ's faith unseen to earth seen.
Deuteronomy 32:1-3 King James Version (KJV)Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:
Called the water of the word in the new testament .The doctrines Christ washes his bride the church with.
Catholics have their own book of Law CCC as oral traditions of men inspired from earth . It takes on the higher authroity making the word of God the lesser to no effect.. While Mormons in the same way have their the book of Mormon. or Moslem have the Koran. All doctrines of must be compared to the Bible.
The Bible in its entirety alone is the final authority in matters of faith, the unseen will of God that works in the believer..
One is our Holy Father. The teaching master
So you're answer is we are lead to all truth by the authority figures around us? (let me be specific here, for the believer with questions I speaking directly about those who are saved) It's honestly hard to see the answer to what I asked in your response, but if I asked you where do I go to get the true meaning of scripture, where do I go for answers? You say to the local body or the local church, correct? Also please break it down to the most direct answer. I'm a very simple man so I like baseline answers. Thank you by the way for the mutual respect in your response, these are meaningful conversations in my opinion where I actually learn from the conversation and grow. So thank you for that.
Purgatory which has no promise to a end is a continuation of those who do despite to the grace of God denying the work of Christ labor of love.
They teach that the queen of heaven that the apostate Jews sought after (Astarte ) whom they have renamed "Mary ".That she alone receive the fulness of God's grace. Every other creature a unknown remnant and even after they die they continue to wonder adding their sufferings to Christ. And must suffer for another unknow amount of sufferings, or kind severity no end of suffering. The kind of religion that keeps a person wondering with no end of faith. No salvation of ones soul . Just wondering
While there must be matters of opinion as oral traditions of men .Denying the faith of Christ the one source of grace. It is damnable or judgeable. It begs for the gospel light of grace to take away the lying wondering
1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
They teach that the queen of heaven that the apostate Jews sought after (Astarte ) whom they have renamed "Mary ".That she alone receive the fulness of God's grace. Every other creature a unknown remnant and even after they die they continue to wonder adding their sufferings to Christ. And must suffer for another unknow amount of sufferings, or kind severity no end of suffering. The kind of religion that keeps a person wondering with no end of faith. No salvation of ones soul . Just wondering
While there must be matters of opinion as oral traditions of men .Denying the faith of Christ the one source of grace. It is damnable or judgeable. It begs for the gospel light of grace to take away the lying wondering
1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
I would offer.
Who stands on their private interpretations and why? Why the tittle Great as renown?
Not to take away he honor God gives as a gift to men his renown. If any shoulder we could stand on it would be those of Christ's renown (giant of faith) Mankind moved by the faith that comes from hearing God as it is written. Woman like Deborah men like Abel moved from within as it is written in the law and the prophets (sola scripture). The faith of Christ worked in them all to both will and empower them to glorify Christ.
Giants of faith, as apostles sent by God. . . Abraham, Issacs, Jacob, and the apostle Jesus .
Note ... (purple) my addition. It speaks of ownership.
2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, (Christ in us) according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
It would seem those who changed the meaning of the word Apostles = "sent ones" in order to give themselves the venerating power to lord it over the faith of the non venerable pew sitters .
They would seem to had their own adversary,. All things written in the law prophets (sola scriptura ). The reforming restoring power in any generation or time period . The first century reformation sola scriptura restored it carbon copy of the fifteenth .
.Same law of the father earthly inspired of men
Who stands on their private interpretations and why? Why the tittle Great as renown?
Not to take away he honor God gives as a gift to men his renown. If any shoulder we could stand on it would be those of Christ's renown (giant of faith) Mankind moved by the faith that comes from hearing God as it is written. Woman like Deborah men like Abel moved from within as it is written in the law and the prophets (sola scripture). The faith of Christ worked in them all to both will and empower them to glorify Christ.
Giants of faith, as apostles sent by God. . . Abraham, Issacs, Jacob, and the apostle Jesus .
Note ... (purple) my addition. It speaks of ownership.
2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, (Christ in us) according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
It would seem those who changed the meaning of the word Apostles = "sent ones" in order to give themselves the venerating power to lord it over the faith of the non venerable pew sitters .
They would seem to had their own adversary,. All things written in the law prophets (sola scriptura ). The reforming restoring power in any generation or time period . The first century reformation sola scriptura restored it carbon copy of the fifteenth .
.Same law of the father earthly inspired of men
What I would like to know is how many of those people coming up with all this nonsense are churchmen. Are you part of the assembly of Saints? Just asking. Are you under a duly called and ordained Teacher that disciples or are you a go it alone type?
I think blue sleeps faster than Tuesday because soon the clear iguana holds the wind sauce.
I think blue sleeps faster than Tuesday because soon the clear iguana holds the wind sauce.
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