That's a false dilemma and total mischaracterization of what I've said. How about addressing what I've actually said so far instead of resorting to fallacies.
No 'But '
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Chill, I am just trying to figure out what you meant when you said "live by faith. Both before and after the cross."
We live by faith now, by following Paul's instructions from Romans to Philemon, as I have already quoted Romans 4:5, we cease from doing all works, and believe that Jesus died on the cross for our salvation.
We tell God that and God sees that as faith in him during this time period, and declare us righteous.
But how does a Jew live by faith, before the cross, in your doctrine?
It's amazing how you can make a work of rest.
We do not live by faith by "following Paul's instructions," to do so is to make a law of Paul's writings and make grace into a work.
Living by faith is living in relationship with God, it always has been. It is not found in following writings or in obeying verbal instructions. Even the faithless can learn doctrine and be obedient to legal statutes.
If such is mystifying to you, I'd suggest you seek to know the Living God rather than simply reading about Him.
I notice you kept avoiding my question.
How does a Jew "live in a relationship with God" during the OT, after God gave the nation the Law of Moses?
Let me give you a simple scenario, you are a Jew in the OT, and your kid just came of age, and he wants to know how he can live in a relationship with God, what would you say to him?
Why would I answer your question when you completely ignored my examples and questions to you?
Which question?
Ruth and Rahab, after they joined Israel thru marriage, still had to keep the Law of Moses.
David, after God forgave him for adultery and murder, still had to keep the Law of Moses after that forgiveness.
That's a partial answer, but it still doesn't address the underlying point nor is it addressing every question I asked.
You seem to be under the impression that what was expected of Israel was simply following the dictates of God to acheive righteousness. Israel approached it the same way and that's exactly why they failed.
The law wasn't given so Israel could establish their own righteousness, but so that they could know the God behind it. Instead they got caught up in slavish obedience and wound up tithing mint and dill while ignoring the weightier parts.
Faith is not about the external trappings, it is an inner obedience. It's kind of like that saying "the clothes don't make the man."
Because you mistake this relationship you divide up the revelation of God.
Israel failed and was set aside by God, because when Jesus appeared to them in the flesh, the Law commanded them to believe in him as their Messiah.
Moses the lawgiver, himself told Israel in Deut 18:15, which was repeated by Peter to the nation Israel in Acts 3:22
"The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him.
They did not obey that commandment from the Law, and rejected Jesus as their Messiah for the final time by stoning Stephen in Acts 7.
And that was how God included all of us gentiles into the salvation plan, without the Law of Moses, thru the fall of Israel (Romans 11:11)
Are you now ready to answer my simple and direct question to you?
They didn't recognize Jesus as the Messiah because the manner they approached the law, which is what Paul states in Romans 9:30-33.
An Israelite could have shown faith apart from the law the same way we show faith today. Caring for the homeless poor, loving the stranger in their midst, defending the defenseless, clothing the naked. That some of that would have been expressed through obedience to the law does not make it the obedience to the law that is the important factor.
They also needed to be circumcised during the OT, hope you have not forgotten that? (Genesis 17:14)
What about eating unclean animals, what about not intermarrying with Gentiles during the OT? There are so many other requirements that Moses gave them in the Torah that you conveniently left out.
I didn't "conveniently leave them out," I had already addressed such things in two points from the gospels, the adulterous woman and the tithing of herbs. The law wasn't about living out the statutes strictly, which is exactly why the Jews routinely killed prophets and eventually demanded the life of Christ. If it were as easy as following such a rule book the Pharisees would have been happy, yet being teachers of the law they completely missed the God that it was meant to bring them to a relationship with.
All of those "requirements" are trappings, and while they had a place in the kingdom of Israel they were not how an Israelite showed faith. If they were the Israelites would have recognized their Messiah.
After works, you could have added "to merit salvation". Works to merit salvation are of no value. However good works to DEMONSTRATE and WORK OUT salvation is a Bible doctrine.
Roman 4
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
The one who do not work but trust
So there are 2 group of christian
1. Not work but trust, example after accept Jesus doe in the next second
2. Accept Jesus and live another 15 years
For this group, as long as Jesus still in their heart, this people will produce love.
And the manifestation on loving God is obey Him
Also love other, the manefestation of love other is helping other, it take a lot of work, like what Paul did
Paul suffer jail etc for the sake of love God and other
I think you believe trust or have faith mean hate other, rob other no need to obey God, am I correct
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
The one who do not work but trust
So there are 2 group of christian
1. Not work but trust, example after accept Jesus doe in the next second
2. Accept Jesus and live another 15 years
For this group, as long as Jesus still in their heart, this people will produce love.
And the manifestation on loving God is obey Him
Also love other, the manefestation of love other is helping other, it take a lot of work, like what Paul did
Paul suffer jail etc for the sake of love God and other
I think you believe trust or have faith mean hate other, rob other no need to obey God, am I correct
So your point "An Israelite could have shown faith apart from the law the same way we show faith today" cannot be correct.
We are free from the Law of Moses, they are not. They needed to show faith in God, by obeying the Law of Moses, we do not have to.
"work out salvation" is a vague term.
Are you saying, if there are no works demonstrated afterwards, one is not "really" saved? If so, then I disagree.
Well then you are not disagreeing with me, but with God. And that is rather dangerous my friend.
[Chirst] Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. (Titus 2:14)
Does Christ expect you to be ZEALOUS in doing good works? Does the word zealous have something to do with zeal? Which means that if you are not doing good works zealously, you are not really saved. Merely a false professor.
You are fond of using God when people are really disagreeing with your interpretation of the word.
Are all people who are saved able to do good works after salvation?....some can’t,they are still saved,