A Thread To Discuss Anything About Scripture.
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First, I admit that I think I know the answer to this question. So I'm using it as a provocation to discussion on it. In John 7:39 the King James renders it; "(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified)". But the word "given" is in italics to show that the word does not appear in the original texts. Thus, Darby (correctly) renders this verse;
"But this he said concerning the Spirit, which they that believed on him were about to receive; for [the] Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified." (Darby)
But immediately a difficulty arises. The meaning of the verse changes dramaticaly. It now means that the Holy Spirit, which the Disciples received in John 20:22) did not exist yet in John 7:39! Young's literla translation agrees with Darby. It reads;
"and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified" (YLT)
What then is the truth? Was the Holy Spirit "not yet" - that is, He did not exist yet until Christ's resurrection?
"But this he said concerning the Spirit, which they that believed on him were about to receive; for [the] Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified." (Darby)
But immediately a difficulty arises. The meaning of the verse changes dramaticaly. It now means that the Holy Spirit, which the Disciples received in John 20:22) did not exist yet in John 7:39! Young's literla translation agrees with Darby. It reads;
"and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified" (YLT)
What then is the truth? Was the Holy Spirit "not yet" - that is, He did not exist yet until Christ's resurrection?
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It should be obvious that the correct translation was given by the King James translators. To suggest that the Holy Spirit did not exist until Christ was glorified is total nonsense, and Genesis 1:2 makes that perfectly clear. Indeed, since the Holy Spirit is God, He had no beginning and existed from eternity past.
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This, I believe, is the best way to understand this:
The Holy Spirit and His work, have to be understood in two ways. There is the work of the Spirit in the New Birth. John 3:3-10 and then there is the work of the Holy Spirit, indwelling believers, as the Comforter.
The work of the Spirit, in giving one spiritual life, through the New Birth, has been going on since the fall of Adam. This work is necessary at all times. Without it, who would give us a "new heart" and a "new spirit"? By necessity, all of the disciples, except Judas, were Born Again. In this same vein, the Holy Spirit had not yet been given authority to baptize the infant Church/Assembly. Which took place at Pentecost.
The second portion of His work, to teach the believer and bring all things into remembrance, was not at work during Jesus Christ's earthly ministry. Indeed, it could not be. For during Christ's earthly ministry, the believers had the Divine Logos to teach them. You could not have both the Lord and the Holy Spirit providing the same role. Besides, what would the Holy Spirit add? Jesus was the one that had all the Words that the father had given Him to say. (John 14:10). But once Jesus ascended, back to the right hand of His Father, believers would no longer have His presence or His Words. So Christ comforts them:
Christ's statement in John 7:39, alludes to what our Lord said to the disciples, in John 14:16 and other verses:
John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it is not beholding him, neither is knowing him: ye know him; for he is abiding with you, and shall be in you.
We can see in this verse, that believers knew Him. This was thanks to the New Birth and the Holy Spirit was an ever abiding presence but He was not "indwelling" believers at that time. This "indwelling" would allow believers to be taught of God, whereas previous to His indwelling, the memory of the believer and the understanding were not as brilliantly illuminated as they would be.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.
Without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (Comforter), the Disciples, could not always recall what the Lord had taught:
John 12:16 These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.
The Comforter was sent after Jesus was Glorified.
I hope that helps a little, would love to give more but space is limited here.
The Holy Spirit and His work, have to be understood in two ways. There is the work of the Spirit in the New Birth. John 3:3-10 and then there is the work of the Holy Spirit, indwelling believers, as the Comforter.
The work of the Spirit, in giving one spiritual life, through the New Birth, has been going on since the fall of Adam. This work is necessary at all times. Without it, who would give us a "new heart" and a "new spirit"? By necessity, all of the disciples, except Judas, were Born Again. In this same vein, the Holy Spirit had not yet been given authority to baptize the infant Church/Assembly. Which took place at Pentecost.
The second portion of His work, to teach the believer and bring all things into remembrance, was not at work during Jesus Christ's earthly ministry. Indeed, it could not be. For during Christ's earthly ministry, the believers had the Divine Logos to teach them. You could not have both the Lord and the Holy Spirit providing the same role. Besides, what would the Holy Spirit add? Jesus was the one that had all the Words that the father had given Him to say. (John 14:10). But once Jesus ascended, back to the right hand of His Father, believers would no longer have His presence or His Words. So Christ comforts them:
Christ's statement in John 7:39, alludes to what our Lord said to the disciples, in John 14:16 and other verses:
John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it is not beholding him, neither is knowing him: ye know him; for he is abiding with you, and shall be in you.
We can see in this verse, that believers knew Him. This was thanks to the New Birth and the Holy Spirit was an ever abiding presence but He was not "indwelling" believers at that time. This "indwelling" would allow believers to be taught of God, whereas previous to His indwelling, the memory of the believer and the understanding were not as brilliantly illuminated as they would be.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.
Without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (Comforter), the Disciples, could not always recall what the Lord had taught:
John 12:16 These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.
The Comforter was sent after Jesus was Glorified.
I hope that helps a little, would love to give more but space is limited here.
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No. The Holy Spirit wanted to see if men would make the mistake of assuming that He did not exist since before eternity past. And some made that mistake.
The Holy Spirit generally guided the KJV translators to insert the words which were needed to clarify Scripture, given the fact that translation from Hebrew and Greek could never provide exact equivalence. So let's look at John 7:39 and see that helping words were required to clarify the truth.
Scrivener's Textus Receptus
Τοῦτο δὲ εἶπε περὶ τοῦ Πνεύματος οὗ ἔμελλον λαμβάνειν οἱ πιστεύοντες εἰς αὐτόν· οὔπω γὰρ ἦν Πνεῦμα Ἅγιον, ὅτι ὁ Ἰησοῦς οὐδέπω ἐδοξάσθη.
The interlinear translation is as follows: This now He said concerning the Spirit, whom were about to receive those having believed in Him. Not yet [given] for was [the] Spirit Holy, because [the] Jesus not yet was glorified.
As we can see "given" was necessary to complete the thought, but "the" was needed for the Holy Spirit. and not needed for Jesus.
The Holy Spirit generally guided the KJV translators to insert the words which were needed to clarify Scripture, given the fact that translation from Hebrew and Greek could never provide exact equivalence. So let's look at John 7:39 and see that helping words were required to clarify the truth.
Scrivener's Textus Receptus
Τοῦτο δὲ εἶπε περὶ τοῦ Πνεύματος οὗ ἔμελλον λαμβάνειν οἱ πιστεύοντες εἰς αὐτόν· οὔπω γὰρ ἦν Πνεῦμα Ἅγιον, ὅτι ὁ Ἰησοῦς οὐδέπω ἐδοξάσθη.
The interlinear translation is as follows: This now He said concerning the Spirit, whom were about to receive those having believed in Him. Not yet [given] for was [the] Spirit Holy, because [the] Jesus not yet was glorified.
As we can see "given" was necessary to complete the thought, but "the" was needed for the Holy Spirit. and not needed for Jesus.
Bezaleel was filled with God the Holy Spirit, Long Before The Cross of Calvary or Resurrection?
Exodus 31:1-3KJV
1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2 See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah:
3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
Same happened to Balaam?
Numbers 24:1-5
1 And when Balaam saw that it pleased the Lord to bless Israel, he went not, as at other times, to seek for enchantments, but he set his face toward the wilderness.
2 And Balaam lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel abiding in his tents according to their tribes; and the spirit of God came upon him.
3 And he took up his parable, and said, Balaam the son of Beor hath said, and the man whose eyes are open hath said:
4 He hath said, which heard the words of God, which saw the vision of the Almighty, falling into a trance, but having his eyes open:
5 How goodly are thy tents, O Jacob, and thy tabernacles, O Israel!
Same Happened To Samuel?
1 Samuel 10:10KJV
10 And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.
Exodus 31:1-3KJV
1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2 See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah:
3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
Same happened to Balaam?
Numbers 24:1-5
1 And when Balaam saw that it pleased the Lord to bless Israel, he went not, as at other times, to seek for enchantments, but he set his face toward the wilderness.
2 And Balaam lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel abiding in his tents according to their tribes; and the spirit of God came upon him.
3 And he took up his parable, and said, Balaam the son of Beor hath said, and the man whose eyes are open hath said:
4 He hath said, which heard the words of God, which saw the vision of the Almighty, falling into a trance, but having his eyes open:
5 How goodly are thy tents, O Jacob, and thy tabernacles, O Israel!
Same Happened To Samuel?
1 Samuel 10:10KJV
10 And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.
You have a good argument. The solution hangs NOT on "the Holy Spirit that was not yet". It hangs of the "Spirit that they should receive".
Christianity at large, although they enter into the full benefits of rebirth, do not appreciate the massive change in God's Economy in the New Testament. The word "Economy" is "Oikonomia" in the Greek. It does not mean a "dispensation in the sense of an epoch" (e.g. Eph.1:10). It means "a household management". The sense is of a mother working in the kitchen to serve her family, or "dispense" food and drink. It is elsewhere, like in Luke, rendered "steward" - man responsible for "dispensing" the Master's supply to his other servants.
If we return to Eden before the fall, God set up a plan. He had created a perfect human couple, but in order to be in the "likeness" of God, man had to have His nature. So God set up a system whereby He would "dispense" Himself into man via the mouth - via the fruit of the Tree of Life. That is, God's goal was to have MAN, perfect in His humanity, but permeated with the divine nature so that man would intrinsically think, feel, decide and speak like God. He would still be a man, but permeated with the divine nature.
We know the sad story. Man rebelled, refused the Tree of Life and ate of a Tree that thoroughly corrupted his HUMAN nature. Among other things, God first gave a set of privileged men - Israel, His Law. Israel demonstrated that the fallen man, even when he was willing to carry out God's Laws, always tended to evil (Romans Chapter 7). But God's councils are immutable. DESPITE man's utter failure, God set in motion an "Economy" - a system of dispensing, whereby He would still be infused into man. But the obstacles were great. Two in particular:
Now, before John 20:20, when the disciples received the Holy Spirit, our Lord Jesus still had two things to do - two things to add to the Holy Spirit. They were human death for men's sins, and human resurrection. Both were crucial because it is in His death that God can judicially extend mercy and forgiveness, and resurrection is the proof that sin and sins are put away. The "wages" of sin is death, so if one little sin remained after Jesus' death, He would not, and could not, be resurrected. The word "glory" means "made apparent" (Strong's & Vine). So the "glorification" of Jesus was God "making apparent" that all sin and sins had been put away. And with that huge obstacle put out of the way, men could recieve from the Tree of life. Men could once again DECIDE whether they wanted to take the fruit of the Tree of Life. Theologians sometimes call the Holy Spirit "the processed Spirit". Why? Because before the Holy Spirit could come into men and dwell there, He had to go through the whole perfect human process!
By John Chapter 7, this had not yet happened. It was NOT the Holy Spirit that was NOT YET, but "THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT THEY (the disciples of Jesus) WOULD RECEIVE - THE PROCESSED HOLY SPIRIT - was not yet equipped. Or, in other words, the Holy Spirit with the addition of Christ's perfect humanity WITH RESURRECTION included. Christianity at large have missed this. They have formed their worship and religion on Israel. They have a Christ that sits in heaven (which He does). But John Chapter's 14 to 17 show that Jesus, as the processed Holy Spirit, will come to dwell IN US, not WITH US like He did with Israel. Christianity worships a Christ in heaven, but Christ pointedly said in John Chapter 4:23-24 that the PLACE of worship is in the human spirit! It is "Christ IN YOU" that achieves God's plan (Col.1:27). God's Economy (Dispensing) in the New Testament is to get Christ into men to permeate men with His perfect humanity. He starts with the human spirit (Jn.3:6). then He permeates the soul (Rom.8:29; 2nd Cor.3:18), and then, in resurrection we are physically "like" Christ (1st Jn.3:2).
God does not dwell WITH us in temples made with hands. He does not replace the Law with more Laws. God DISPENSES His Son Christ, in the Person of the Holy Spirit, INTO MEN to place INSIDE the man, the very Tri-une God WHO HAS MADE THE WHOLE AND PERFECT HUMAN EXPERIENCE PART OF HIMSELF. John 7:39 PREDICTS the giving of the Holy Spirit, WHEN JESUS HAD ACCOMPLISHED HUMAN DEATH AND RESURRECTION. The Holy Spirit needed first to have Christ's resurrection added before He could be DISPENSED into men.
Christianity at large, although they enter into the full benefits of rebirth, do not appreciate the massive change in God's Economy in the New Testament. The word "Economy" is "Oikonomia" in the Greek. It does not mean a "dispensation in the sense of an epoch" (e.g. Eph.1:10). It means "a household management". The sense is of a mother working in the kitchen to serve her family, or "dispense" food and drink. It is elsewhere, like in Luke, rendered "steward" - man responsible for "dispensing" the Master's supply to his other servants.
If we return to Eden before the fall, God set up a plan. He had created a perfect human couple, but in order to be in the "likeness" of God, man had to have His nature. So God set up a system whereby He would "dispense" Himself into man via the mouth - via the fruit of the Tree of Life. That is, God's goal was to have MAN, perfect in His humanity, but permeated with the divine nature so that man would intrinsically think, feel, decide and speak like God. He would still be a man, but permeated with the divine nature.
We know the sad story. Man rebelled, refused the Tree of Life and ate of a Tree that thoroughly corrupted his HUMAN nature. Among other things, God first gave a set of privileged men - Israel, His Law. Israel demonstrated that the fallen man, even when he was willing to carry out God's Laws, always tended to evil (Romans Chapter 7). But God's councils are immutable. DESPITE man's utter failure, God set in motion an "Economy" - a system of dispensing, whereby He would still be infused into man. But the obstacles were great. Two in particular:
- God is righteous to the uttermost, so man must pay for his sins
- Man was utterly corrupted and almost useless for God's purpose of being in His likeness
Now, before John 20:20, when the disciples received the Holy Spirit, our Lord Jesus still had two things to do - two things to add to the Holy Spirit. They were human death for men's sins, and human resurrection. Both were crucial because it is in His death that God can judicially extend mercy and forgiveness, and resurrection is the proof that sin and sins are put away. The "wages" of sin is death, so if one little sin remained after Jesus' death, He would not, and could not, be resurrected. The word "glory" means "made apparent" (Strong's & Vine). So the "glorification" of Jesus was God "making apparent" that all sin and sins had been put away. And with that huge obstacle put out of the way, men could recieve from the Tree of life. Men could once again DECIDE whether they wanted to take the fruit of the Tree of Life. Theologians sometimes call the Holy Spirit "the processed Spirit". Why? Because before the Holy Spirit could come into men and dwell there, He had to go through the whole perfect human process!
By John Chapter 7, this had not yet happened. It was NOT the Holy Spirit that was NOT YET, but "THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT THEY (the disciples of Jesus) WOULD RECEIVE - THE PROCESSED HOLY SPIRIT - was not yet equipped. Or, in other words, the Holy Spirit with the addition of Christ's perfect humanity WITH RESURRECTION included. Christianity at large have missed this. They have formed their worship and religion on Israel. They have a Christ that sits in heaven (which He does). But John Chapter's 14 to 17 show that Jesus, as the processed Holy Spirit, will come to dwell IN US, not WITH US like He did with Israel. Christianity worships a Christ in heaven, but Christ pointedly said in John Chapter 4:23-24 that the PLACE of worship is in the human spirit! It is "Christ IN YOU" that achieves God's plan (Col.1:27). God's Economy (Dispensing) in the New Testament is to get Christ into men to permeate men with His perfect humanity. He starts with the human spirit (Jn.3:6). then He permeates the soul (Rom.8:29; 2nd Cor.3:18), and then, in resurrection we are physically "like" Christ (1st Jn.3:2).
God does not dwell WITH us in temples made with hands. He does not replace the Law with more Laws. God DISPENSES His Son Christ, in the Person of the Holy Spirit, INTO MEN to place INSIDE the man, the very Tri-une God WHO HAS MADE THE WHOLE AND PERFECT HUMAN EXPERIENCE PART OF HIMSELF. John 7:39 PREDICTS the giving of the Holy Spirit, WHEN JESUS HAD ACCOMPLISHED HUMAN DEATH AND RESURRECTION. The Holy Spirit needed first to have Christ's resurrection added before He could be DISPENSED into men.
No. The word "given" is an ADDITION by men. Our job is to explain what God said, and not add something to satisfy our lack of understanding. But if you stand by your argument, pray, tell us why the King James translators put in "EASTER" - a heathen feast to the fertility goddess - instead of "Passover" in Acts 12:4. I tell you, I love the King James. It has the best set of reference works. It is an accurate translation. But if a translator doesn't understand something and must add a word to satisfy his intellect, much more is it given to us to search out the matter.
I suggest you do not promote adding to God's Words.
I suggest you do not promote adding to God's Words.
Scripture uses two words for "filled".
They can be seen together and correctly applied in Acts 2:2-4. The room was "filled" (internally) with a mighty rushing wind, bit the disciples were "FURNISHED" with the Holy Spirit (externally) for power. That what they were doing in Jerusalem 50 days after Christ was resurrected, and that's what happened in the three cases you showed above. The word is "furnished". Balaam's donkey also received the Spirit, but was still a donkey afterwards.
- One, "pleroo", means "filled" like a bucket is full of water
- The other, "playtho" means "furnished" like a policeman is furnished with a uniform to prove his authority
They can be seen together and correctly applied in Acts 2:2-4. The room was "filled" (internally) with a mighty rushing wind, bit the disciples were "FURNISHED" with the Holy Spirit (externally) for power. That what they were doing in Jerusalem 50 days after Christ was resurrected, and that's what happened in the three cases you showed above. The word is "furnished". Balaam's donkey also received the Spirit, but was still a donkey afterwards.
We will disagree, those of the Old Testament were filled with the same Holy Spirit As The Believers In Acts.
1 Samuel 16:13KJV
13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.
1 Samuel 16:13KJV
13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.
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One would only need to read the first two verses of the Bible to answer this big theological question (tongue in cheek).
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
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Thank you,I will read those,you can post anything here,regarding scripture.....
Faith comes by hearing indeed.....hearing in your spirit,God testifying to our spirit that we are His Child.
Your spirit connecting with the Holy Spirit,made alive in Christ,a new birth a new relationship has begun with God and myself,..which is a Honour and Privilege.
Without ever reading a bible,not once.
God chose me he drew me,no choice,all very natural as it was the will of God,Never ever to deny.
Thoughts full of Jesus....very private revelation.
Can you explain what.....a human spirit being quickened is?
Has your spirit been quickened?
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I find this question very interesting....I wouldn’t be so bold to say I know the answer,so be careful who you listen to,as none of us are God.
God has always been.
Jesus came to save our souls/ spirit....a way to connect back to God...before Adam sinned,he was alive then he died spiritually.
Only the spirit of Jesus can save us,so in order for that to happenGod had to come down as man....He felt everything we do .
Not sure I answered your question,but hey,we can say anything on this thread about scripture,lol.
Then it saves other threads being derailed....that was the thinking behind this thread.
Have a good day and God Bless.
I see that as...internally,being filled with the Holy Spirit in their inner being/spirit......externally,to use to Glorify God,as from the power that was within them.
My belief,the Holy Spirit dwells in a believer,which is the new birth and there is power in your inner being,that power is the Holy Spirit,therefore what ever you do in His Name,all the Glory Goes To Him as we are nothing without Him....no power nada/zero.
By the way @dcontroversal .....God’s ways are higher than your ways,His thoughts are Higher than your thoughts.
Without the the Holy Spirit....your thoughts are that of your own.which means nada/ zero.
Where as Spirit gives birth to Spirit.......Flesh gives birth to Flesh?.....a natural man...only the Holy Spirit can lead you through scripture.
Without out Him....zero/ nada understanding.
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